Judas and the Lord's Supper

Hello Eladar. You posted 16 February, 2005 21:05 page 3.

I said, "Well that fine for Him to say is it not but who created him?" A bit cheeky I'd admit but who created Judas? Is he not mentioned in the OT? PS 41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. My reply to 'better if he had not been born' is why create Him then? The answer to that is to fulfill scripture. To fulfill the plan. To ask the question is not the fault not believing the answer is the fault. I did not ask Him by the way I was asking in general. Paul asks the question, "Then why does God still blame us?" He does even when it would be better not to be born is the answer I accept what about you?

I don't question the Potter in a rebellious way but I do ask questions.

Now you question Him? What if He does will you accept that?

Faith from first to last. Salvation is the same as it ever was. Chosen and atoned for by God.
My question to you was, Can you tell me how to do this, "...make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!" Please? You said it was a mystery. I said, It can't be a mystery. Of course salvation can't be a mystery unless we are not meant to accomplish it. If you say we must create in ourselves a new heart and get a new spirit you must tell us how to and not say it is a mystery must you not?
You answer that with, "Are you saying you demand a sign? Are you saying that God's ways must be understood? No but if He tells us the way of salvation you would expect Him to tell us how!

I'm always out on a limb it's fun out on the limb. I do not defend my position I speak the word of God.

Yes but the only righteousness found to be useful is that of Christ's. Self-righteousness is not so good a fire retardant.

What you think, scripture can contradict itself or can't?

johnp.

 

Hi Eladar;

Word Game What game would that be. HMMMMM! I know this one;

You quote romans 9:11-21 and latter make this statement.

Don't you realize we are still lumps of clay that can be molded and remolded over and over again. Who says God can't change you into something else?
Whats wrong can't you reply to a reasonable opposition to your view with out insult. I only showed you that what you had assumed about the story of the potter and the clay isn't true. This is what happens when one assumes they know when they haven't throughly checked it all out.

There is no game when you insult me for no reason other than you don't accept my position. If you don't want to argue it further just don't reply at all. That way I'll know you can't answer it, that's enough for me.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Except for the work of Salvadore Dali and others of his ilk, One brush-stroke does not a Classic painting make! One or two select scriptures does not the story tell either. That is obviously true because it takes the whole bible to be the word of God, and in that the bible cannot contain all the word of God, one must accept the whole of creation too, to have the word of God. See in Genesis where "God said" and viola! It came into existance! So one or two scriptures is not sufficient to base a holy doctrine upon.

 

Wes,

I agree. There are too many verses that say we have free will, just as there are too many verses that say God predestines. Therefore my position is that God both predestines and allows free will. I allow for the possibility that God does predestine some for the fires of hell. I don't paticularly like the idea, but who are we to judge?

It is a great mystery.

I was simply questioning you because you seem so strongly against predestination. We must be willing to look at and accept the entire Bible.

 

johnp.,

I just love it when Brits use the term 'cheeky', it must be all those Thomas the Tank Engines my son likes to watch.

I believe that God still holds us accountable, even if all we are doing is carrying out His purpose for our lives.

I'm not questioning Him, I'm questioning your interpretation of the Bible. You seem to believe that we have absolutely not possibility of making a decision to follow Him. This goes against many verses, in paticular Ezekiel 18.

This is absolutely faulty logic. Where in the Bible do you find this doctrine?

How to become a child of God, or how it works? I've already told you how to do it. You demand to know how it works. The works part is the demanding of a sign. This is where faith comes to play.

I do not?

I agree, and I'd add self-proclaimed salvation to the list of things that are not so good a fire retardant.

Contradict itself or contradict the implications that we make it to say?

 

With God removing the death penalty for sin, and giving man the choice to believe or not believe, is there a need for predestination in general? I don't think so!

As for Shepherds for the Flocks, Yes, I believe that God still calls those who are to be those shepherds. I do not believe the church is left to chance! There are those who are either called by God, or, as the apostles were, there are those who were "predestined" to be shepherds. But the sheep need not be predestined, as they are drawn to Jesus through his being lifted up, and they come to be fed by the shepherd and the result is faith in God which results in the Gift of God which is salvation into eternal life for those who do believe.

 

Yes, Jesus' sacrifice does remove the death penalty for a minority of people.

Yes, at least this is true for some people.

God's ways are God's ways. There is no 'need' for anything He does from our perspective.

So you believe that God only predestines eyes?

There is only one Shepherd, the rest of are sheep. Even the sheep who believe they are shepards.

 

Hello Eladar.

I've just got back from South Wales after picking my 6 year old son up from Granny's. Thomas the Tank Engine is a blessing compared to Power Rangers.
I got most of answers from the piece you did for Wes.

I believe we are responsible, not just held responsible, for our sins even when He raises us up to do His doings. Responsible and accountable regardless of the fact that we are born dead and incapable of doing good. That is what the scriptures say.
Incapable I see is slipping from you?

We don't. Or we do but He works that in us. It must originate in Him because He calls Himself the Saviour.

What doctrine? Of course salvation can't be a mystery unless we are not meant to accomplish it. This? This was in reply to you saying we must get a new heart and spirit and I asked how we do that and you said it was a mystery! Why tell us to get a new heart and spirit if the way to get it is hidden? But it is hidden, "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen 3:22. Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
And guarded.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. I see you say, "Therefore my position is that God both predestines and allows free will." Which is a contradiction isn't it? Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

No I don't care how things work just as long as they do. I ask how to be saved not how does it work. If I gave the impression that I was asking that I apologise. How do you get a new heart?

Only when we are right and one of us is wrong.

I agree but then a self-proclaimed salvation is seldom proclaimed by those who hold to free will. Free will has a tendency to make one aware that one is weak and everlasting security is not present. A person who claims salvation would have a tendency to believe that Christ died for their sins so revealing a new heart and spirit would you not agree?

Contradict itself. Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Where's the free will verses?

1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

johnp.

 

johnp.,

We don't allow Power Rangers.

Yes, we are incapable of doing good, but what exactly does that mean? It is not the truth that gets in the way, it is the implications that get in the way.

I don't follow what you are getting at.

But when push comes to shove we don't notice one way or the other.

This is obvious to you, but it is non-sense to me.

I gave you the way, but following God's commands. You demanded to know why it works. How it works is the mystery.

If you continue to ask this question, even though I've answered it two times now, I will simply assume you are setting up a strawman to knock down.

It is not necessarily a contradiction to our understanding, but then again it could be. It does not bother me, I simply have faith.

By putting Jesus' teachings into practice.

So it is automatically you who is espousing the word of God?

Of course I disagree. I see those who judge their own salvation simply have a sense of security. If it leads even one to a false sense of security, then it is little more than a tool of Satan.

There is no free will for those who are represented by the path where the birds eat the seeds of God's truth before it takes root. There are other kinds of hearts.

I will see your 1PE 2:9 with a 1 John 2:19:

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

And raise you a Philippians 2:12

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

No need to tremble if you are already saved.

 

Hello Eladar.

I don't blame you.

Towards God. Towards our fellow man but only because we cannot do good towards God. There can be no good in us whatsoever. Not able to do anything for anyone that would be viewed as meritorious in anyway whatsoever.
Incapable as Romans 8:7 says we are. Hostility towards God is all we are about. I don't understand, "It is not the truth that gets in the way, it is the implications that get in the way."

Do you mean we can't tell? Since He works in our will to will to do His will we would be ignorant of the fact that it was not originating in us, but is in a way. But He tells us it originates in Him so I believe that.
EZE 36:24 " `For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. 30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

For fear of setting up strawmen I will not ask again. Though I still don't understand the point.

Jesus Christ died for our sins.
I asked;
I ask how to be saved not how does it work. If I gave the impression that I was asking that I apologise. How do you get a new heart?
You answer;
By putting Jesus' teachings into practice.
Whoever believes in me will never die? Or what?

To me of course. If I doubt a thing I say so. If I believe it is the word of God then that is what I believe but I also believe everything said finds it's origins in the will of God. I confine the 'the word of God' to mean scripture. But the whole of life is dealt dealing with God as far as I can make out. Everything I see, hear, smell and feel is God acting in my life. He deals me a hand every moment of the day. I deal with it as He tells me to in His word. (Or try to! I still get irritated when that little old woman pulls out in front of me. Any other time and I bow to the little old lady and let her go first except when I'm driving. Then God lets her go first!)

What is a tool of Satan? A sense of security? No that is wrong. My Father wants me to know I'm safe. John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

There can be no false sense of security if you believe Jesus died for your sins! You are free. That's all there is to it all. The powerhouse. 1Cor 2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

I'll go for two. The circumcised and the uncircumcised. The heart of flesh and the one of stone. How many have you?

Did you bring the whiskey?
And raise you a Philippians 2:12

I'll see you with; I worked it out! Jesus Christ died for my sins! Why tell us to work it out if it is a mystery? But only because I am a Christian.
A Royal Priesthood man!

johnp.

 

Yes, Jesus' sacrifice does remove the death penalty for a minority of people.</font>[/QUOTE]Then how do you deal with "the sins of the world" doesn't that include "ALL sins of the world". I find nowhere in scripture a description of sins that are atoned and those that are not.

Yes Eli's house and Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit appear in scripture as "unforgiven and unforgiveable sins", but they are the same sin. Eli's house rejected God. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejection of God.

One must rightly conclude that ALL sins are atoned and that those who die the second death do so because their names are not found in the book of life, which means that they have no faith in God. So, it is not a matter of sins, but rather a matter of faith or the lack thereof that causes them to die the second death. And, Yes you could say that they died "in their sins", but not "because of their sins".

 

Wes.

Judas was filled with remorse, he killed himself because of what he had done! Yet you say that the sin that he did was paid for? Since the sin had been dealt with and since he believed in Jesus I see no reason why, under your doctrine, he is not saved. Under my doctrine he shares the deeper of the pits.
Tell me, does the atonement, the way you see it, does that include the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit or must it be limited in some sense?

johnp.

 

But it is sin you even say it is sin! A contradiction. ...but they are the same sin...

johnp.

 

Yes, the Atonement does cover blasphemy of the holy Spirit!

The problem you have understanding this is that you equate atonement of sin with forgiveness of sin. I do not find that equation in scripture!

Atonement removes the penalty of sin from mankind.

Forgiveness comes to those humans who acknowledge and confess their sins. Only those with a contrite spirit will do that. Those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit have shut the door to confession of sin and have no one to whom they can confess! And they most likely would not think that what they do is sin anyway.

Eli's house did not acknowledge there sins let alone confess them, and that is why there is no atonement for eli's house. Those who reject the holy spirit have no one to whom they can confess their sins. You see, the Holy Spirit is God and if you reject the Holy Spirit, you reject God! So who ya gonna confess to?

 

johnp.,

The truth is the actual truth, what God intended to say. The implications are what people do with what the Bible says. The Bible is not simple, but I believe it does explain what it means. The truth is that without God's intervention, it would not be possible for people to do good. We are trapped in bodies that naturally sin, that are in natural opposition to God. Yet through God's intervention it is possible for us to do good. This much is clear. What is unclear is exactly how this is done and what this means when it comes to free will.

Here is a lifeboat analogy: If a boat were to happen upon a group of people in the ocean, it would be impossible for the survivors to scale the sides of the boat. Yet it would be possible if a cargo net were thrown overside. It is God that created the boat and has cast the net, yet it would still require action on the part of the people in the water to get in the boat. If the people in the water were blind, they'd have to accept instructions on how to approach the boat and how to climb the cargo net in order for the net to be of any use.

I know this is not a perfect analogy. I was simply using it as an example of how it would be impossible to do something on one's own, but still require action to be successful.

It is simply an implication (or if you like inferred) that we are to do nothing and that God must do everything. There is simply too much scripture that must be overlooked to believe that we really must do nothing, other than believe that Jesus will simply save us because we believe he will.

Yes, it originates in Him, but that does not mean that we play no part. That is simply a logical inference. As you know, Man's logic is not always consistant with God's truth.

Yes, there are specific instances where God does directly interact. Yet does that mean it is universal? Is it not possible that God simply ensures certain important events actually come to pass? Is it not possible that God puts people in place and allows them to choose incorrectly, but has the perfect plan to bring about another chance for a person to make the right choice?

Is it not possible that there are some who are predestined while most are not? It would be another way of insuring that His plan does come true.

But even if what I'm saying is wrong and what you are saying is correct, does the how really matter?

What does it mean to believe? The Bible does answer this question, it simply doesn't agree with man's logic. Believe simply means believe that Jesus is the son of God and that his death will cover my sins. Yet the Bible says that only those who practice God's commands will be saved, therefore believing in Jesus Christ means accepting and practicing God's commands. They are one in the same.

I'm afraid I am, for all practical purposes a teetotaler.

Is that what you would have said to Paul?

 

Wes,

You might try the parable of the slave who had his debt forgiven by the king(had his sins forgiven, therefore 'saved'), but would not forgive a lesser debt of a fellow slave, therefore having his debt remembered(was saved, but then lost his salvation because of his own action).

 

Eladar,
All sins are atoned! It is a matter of faith as to whether we have everlasting life or the second death.

Atonement is not "forgiveness of", it is "payment for". That which has been paid for, is not charged again!

With the death penalty removed from us, we can through faith have everlasting life! Our sins are counted against us as "deeds" and all men's deeds are tested as if by fire, but the person is not so tested. Deeds such as sins, are consumed in the fire leaving only worthless ash, while good deeds pass through the fire like gold, silver and prescious stones. Gold and silver are purified by fire, and prescious stones are uneffected by fire. It is our good deeds that we lay as treasure at the feet of Jesus. If all that one has are bad deeds that result in worthless ash, that one has nothing to lay at Jesus feet, except his only life. And if the person has faith in Jesus Christ that is sufficient unto Salvation. However, no matter how good your deeds are, if you lack faith in God, your life is worthless in God's eyes and you are cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

 

Hello Eladar.

Then you will go as far as to say He interfers with some peoples hearts? It is obvious He does is it not?

I don't believe it can be anything but absolute control. You cannot ensure the big events without controlling all the little events that lead up to them! You cannot disengage a part of history from the whole! We are all connected. The way He dealt with Pharaoh was not meant to teach us how He displays His power over a man but how He is Sovereign and can do as He likes with all of us. The whole of Romans nine is about this.

I could not deny His Sovereignty. For another to make a choice would mean that He is not Sovereign. Sovereignty has no truck with power sharing! I'm stuck in this and find no way out. He is Sovereign or He is not God. Take a look at what the monarchs of the past thought about sovereignty and you will see a type of God.

"I know this is not a perfect analogy." I don't think the lifeboat analogy works because it makes the assumption we are alive. The scripture says we are dead. A trawling net would be appropriate.

But that is just the point isn't it. Just at the point of salvation my arm would reach out and take it. This makes me saviour and the Saviour just enabler.

But we do not overlook do we? Calvinism has a way about it that encompasses all of scripture or try's very hard to harmonize the scriptures. Contradictions are contradictions. They come about through faulty logic. There is I believe logic. A gift from God.

That's the gospel right there! John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. End of story. "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 1 Peter 2:6.
1Peter 2:8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
...to believe that we really must do nothing, other than believe that Jesus will simply save us because we believe he will.
John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
...to believe that we really must do nothing, other than believe that Jesus will simply save us because we believe he will.
This is a nice one.
Eph 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."
Just believe Jesus died for your sins and He did. Don't take genius just a leap of faith. Rest. Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh...
HEB 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
Just believe and all flows through that. Works of righteousness are different from works for righteousness. Works for righteousness are illegal in God's Sabbath.

Very much I think. It's the difference between life and death for those that hear our message. There is a big difference between 'you must be born again' and 'you must have faith to be born again'!
One lacks power. Jesus died for my sins. That is power.

Not to our salvation. We might believe different things but that does not exclude us.

It's that trust of leaning on Him and His work not ours.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
That's it.

I would have asked Paul if I was correct!
1CO 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
1CO 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

This is wrong you know. I don't understand the point of the passage but notice that the slave remained a slave and left the house a slave. He was only ever dealt with as a slave never as an adopted Child of God. The 'had his sins forgiven, therefore 'saved'' has got to be wrong.
He was never a son.

All the best.

johnp.

 

It seems obvious to me.

Not at all, but I don't think I could ever convince of that.

I believe you do. I would like to see your views on this thread, feel free to post to it:Matthew 18:21-35

Perhaps if you believe that our actions are meaningless.

 

Eladar.

But we do not overlook do we?
What of the rest of your response to my post? Overlooked was it?

johnp.