Judas Iscariot

[TaterTot]

I know that putting the pieces of Judas's story can be a little hairy, but wondered if any of you may have some thoughts....

1)All 4 gospels include Judas's betrayal of Jesus. Luke states that Satan "entered" him, and John uses the word "prompts". Matthew and Mark dont mention Satan. WHats your take?

2)Luke tells us in Acts that his intestines spilled out, but doesnt mention that detail in his gospel. Matthew is the one that tells of his hanging himself. Putting these details together would lead one to believe that after he committed suicide, he just hung there util he burst. Why would this be? Apparently no one came to get him down. I know some even say that there is a discrepancy in how he died. Any thoughts?

 

[James Flagg]

Surely you've heard this rationalization of Judas' death:

He hung himself AND THEN he fell ("headlong" somehow) and his guts "burst asunder".

There is, of course, nothing in The Bible to support this.

I quickly tire of some apologists and the magical thinking they expect of their readers.

I think there is a reason you often hear people say, "The Bible is inerrant in the original autographs". They have to add that qualifier because the versions we have now contain self-contradictory statements. I wish that weren't true, but it simply is.

 

[TaterTot]

Thanks James. I was wondering if its just me. I also just noticed there's another thread on Judas (and the "gospel" of him) so yall feel free to disregard this thread if it's duplicate.

 

[Marcia]

Satan can enter and prompt - that is not contradictory. I think Satan did enter Judas.

As for the other stuff, I don't see any "magical thinking" in the descriptions of Judas' death. Who says the gospels have to have the exact same points of view and relate every detail the same? If they did, they would be wooden copies of each other.

It is reasonable to conclude that after he hung himself, in some way, the guts of Judas spilled out. Maybe after hanging there awhile, the rope broke and he fell, and animals got him.

If you think these are contradictions and errors, then how do you know what is true in the Bible? How do you know about the wise men, since only Matthew tells that story? How do you know Jesus was baptized? Maybe that is an error? How do you know Jesus really said he is the way, the truth, and the life -- that is only in John.

If you are going to say the Bible has errors in these cases, then you better throw the whole thing out because you have no way to know what else is true or not, do you?

 

[Benjamin]

I’ve spent way to much time in the past trying to figure this out but I think the common teaching of Judas committing suicide is probably wrong and the words “hanged himself” was probably a figure of speech like if my wife asked me how she looks in a dress and I don’t give her the right answer I have ‘hanged myself”

(Mat 27:5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

The word “apagchomai” translated “hanged himself” (Mat 27:5) probably means that Judas choked in his grief causing “oneself” death, but maybe does not necessarily mean by his own hand. The only other example we have of this word being preserved in God’s word is in 2 Samuel 17:23 from in the Septuagint.

(2Sa 17:23) And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and got him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulcher of his father.

And handed himself, (comma) and died. Why on earth would we need to be told that he died after we were told that he hanged himself. I think this further points that the meaning of “apagchomai” the word translated to “hanged himself” means that Ahithophel choked in his grief unto death, and then he died.


(Act 1:18) Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

I think Judas had some help buying this field because these men (Chief Priest) were evil murderers that he had thrown the money at. The Chief Priest had the money as it was no longer in his possession. They took council and took Judas with them and showed him his new field. Judas “burst asunder” in the “midst” as they cracked him open or probably cut him from top to bottom as he was in the “midst” of “ them”. They shoved him forward, head long, and his bowels gushed out thereby fulfilling prophesy.

Just something to chew on

 

[Andy T.]

James, are you trying to divert the discussion from Judas to a question on inerrancy? Because it appears that is what you attempted to do. It appears from your statement that you reject inerrancy.

 

[TaterTot]

Thats the whole reason for my thread. There seem to be discrepancies all around the account - even as to who bought the filed and where Judas died. Just doing some wrestling with it, yall dont start a war, please.

 

[Eleazar the Ahohite]

Well,obviously God could've written all He wanted you to have on A4 paper. But He didn't. He wrote a book, a book with interpretive difficulties, seeming contradictions and hard-to-swallow truths. Why?

a) Because he doesn’t want lazy flesh-led believers to sit around and drink spiritual milk. He wants you going over that book comparing scripture with scripture and hammering your head-out in study and supplication for illumination from the Holy Spirit. It affords the believer growth in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. You don’t learn everything about God in one reading, and the journey with the Bible is intensely rewarding. God chooses to reveal truth to us in bits and pieces like a puzzle. He seldom addresses a subject in it's entirety in one place.

b) Because He has a design to condemn people who want to condemn the Word. There are stumbling blocks to the flesh of everyman in that book intentionally!!!

c) Because the Bible is a revelation of God’s eternal power and Godhead, as is nature. His self-existent nature is rich, complex, yet unique. Why are people surprised at that? Venus rotates in reverse and water does not obey the laws of expansion and contraction…(P.S.Ruckman)

There are other reasons, but we pass.

Now for Judas. He is a terrible character of prophecy and the doctrines associated with that DEVIL are hair-raising. Suffice it to say that he will come back out of the bottomless pit as the Anti-Christ.

 

[TaterTot]

lol.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
Thats the whole reason for my thread. There seem to be discrepancies all around the account - even as to who bought the filed and where Judas died. Just doing some wrestling with it, yall dont start a war, please.

If your presupposition is that the Bible is errant, then there really is no dicussion to be had. Case closed, the Bible contradicts itself on the account of Judas' death, therefore it errs.

But if your presupposition is that the Bible is inerrant, then it is a worthwhile discussion to hash out.

 

[James Flagg]

I said it is the apologists who expect magical thinking, not The Bible.

From the book, "When Critics Ask" comes the same response: "The accounts [of Judas' death] are not contradictory, but mutually complementary". This is really the only response I've ever heard and the main problem is that there is nothing in The Bible to support this assertion.

Judas not only picked a tree to hang himself on, but he also climbed out to a branch that hung over a cliff? How long before he rotted and/or the rope broke?

It's a rationalization, nothing more.

 

[James Flagg]

I think someone should approach The Bible without any presuppostions. Read it, look at the evidence, and then let it stand or fall on its own merits.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by James Flagg:
I think someone should approach The Bible without any presuppostions. Read it, look at the evidence, and then let it stand or fall on its own merits.

That's quaint, but not really possible. We all have presuppositions. None of us are a clean slate. What we can do is ask God to conform our presuppositions according to His Word as we read and study it. And if you think it errs, then you are going to intepret it differently than if you think it does not err.

 

[Blessed1]

I believe the Lord allowed Judas to betray Him for many reasons:

(1) It was the will of the Father that this step occur that led to his death - the Lord knew it was coming..

(2) It was scripted/planned in advance(remember the Lord's Last Supper)

(3) It is a picture of how anyone can step out of the will of God, betrayed Jesus for money, and the consequences and mistakes that follow as a result of such.
(4) Granted, hanging yourself is something the Lord doesn't want to occur - however --- it was because of Judas's shame/guilt and dismay that he went to such extremes. He realized what he had done and totally flipped out with grief..

OTHER EXAMPLES OF FOLLOWERS STEPPING OUT OF THE FATHER'S WILL:

SAMPSON, PETER, DAVID.. HERE'S ONE WE ALL KNOW - THE PRODICAL SON: HIS FATHER LET HIM SUFFER FROM BEING OUT OF GOD'S WILL,,BAD CHOICES AND MISTAKES.. HOWEVER, HE TOOK HIM BACK IN WITH OPEN AND LOVING ARMS.. THREW A HUGE PARTY UPON HIS RETURN..

THE GOOD NEWS:

EPHESIANS 4 - GOD IS JUST AND FORGIVES US FOR OUR SINS.. NONE OF US HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT FORGIVE ANYONE - JUST AS CHRIST FORGIVES US - WE MUST FORGIVE ONE ANOTHER - OR CHRIST WILL NOT FORGIVE US.. NNE ELSE HAS SUFFERED LIKE CHRIST - AND ENDURED THE PAIN OF CHRIST - HE FORGIVES, SO SHOULD WE ... WITH GOD'S LOVING GLUE, HE PUTS THE PEICES BACK TOGETHER WHEN WE STEP BACK INTO HIS WILL.. THE KEY IS TO STAY IN HIS WILL , CONSTANTLY SELF JUDGING OUR DAILY LIFE IN TOTAL HONESTY TO THE LORD.. THE GOOD LORD HAS A PLAN FOR ALL , WE JUST NEED TO DENY
SATAN'S DAILY LIES AND ACCEPT GOD'S BEST FOR OUR LIFE.. IT'S A DIALY BATTLE, HOWEVER, WE HAVE THE VICTORY.

 

[TaterTot]

I believe he did that too, but apparently Luke (in Acts) believed that Judas bought the field with the money and Matthew thought that the Pharisees bought the field with the $$ Judas threw back at them. Just stuff like that kinda makes me go "hmmm".

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
I believe he did that too, but apparently Luke (in Acts) believed that Judas bought the field with the money and Matthew thought that the Pharisees bought the field with the $$ Judas threw back at them. Just stuff like that kinda makes me go "hmmm".

It's just possible that this is exactly what happened. According to Matthew's more personal account, the Pharisees bought the field. According to Luke's research, Judas bought the field. Luke was an historian who interviewed others to write his account (only up to a point in his writings, after which he has first hand knowledge). He may have been told that the reward money Judas received was used to purchase the field. He may have (wrongly) assumed that, since it was his reward money that paid for it, Judas himself bought the field.

Another possibility: Luke originally wrote that it was the reward money that paid for the field, and somewhere along the line someone reworded it based on the assumption that Judas paid for it, personally.

Why would God allow an error of this sort to creep into our modern day versions of inspired scripture? Probably because it is irrelevant. Maybe it's even to harden the hearts of those who want to use these irrelevant discrepancies to try to discredit the reliability of scripture.

It isn't the only irrelevant error/contradiction that exists in the best manuscripts we have of scripture. Some of the errors are very obvious copyist errors. We simply don't have the originals to prove it. But IMO it is so obvious that these are copyist errors that it is not necessary to have the originals to prove it.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Blessed1: Welcome to the Baptist Board.

Why don't you introduce yourself in the Welcome Forum so we can all say "hi" and make you feel at home.

Here is the URL:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=2&submit=Go

 

[TaterTot]

Originally posted by npetreley:
[It isn't the only irrelevant error/contradiction that exists in the best manuscripts we have of scripture. Some of the errors are very obvious copyist errors. We simply don't have the originals to prove it. But IMO it is so obvious that these are copyist errors that it is not necessary to have the originals to prove it. [/QB]

Yeah, I agree, and I am ok with that. When we study and see copyist errors, that drives home the truth of the innerancy of the original manuscripts. I have seen several places where it appears that scribes were tired and their writing becomes very sloppy or notes were written in the margins. I dont believe that the issues regarding Judas are that kind. (I am certainly no scholar in that area, but my husband has studied textual criticism extensively, and I have looked at it with him.)
And really, these things dont affect the message of the gospel, per se, but I like digging deeper and not just taking some dude's word for it thats "its just the way it is". Thanks for the civil discussion.