Judge Not

Hi Mark,

To say that i'm saved, i'm born again etc. is not an act of self-righteouensess but rather a demonstration of one's faith in the word of God. A truly saved person will not boast of his righteousness but of the righteousness of Christ imputed to Him.

We can also receive the testimony of man according to the Scriptures if He is saved or not based on his belief. " He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life and He that believeth not the Son hath not life but the wrath of God abideth on Him" Jn. 3:36

Now i don't know if he really believe or not but if He testify that He is saved according to the Scriptures then i don't have right to judge Him. Only God really know the secret of every man's heart. I can only know what is in my heart and therefore really know if i'm really saved or not based on the testimony of the Scriptures and witness of the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, we can know from the Scriptures who is a false teacher and a false prophet. Their teaching, prophecy and lifestyle are contradicting the Holy Scriptures. As the Lrd Jesus says : " By their fruits we shall know them wether they are my disciples or not ".

God prove every claim. Man's profession of faith and practice must pass the test of Scriptures.

4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

Hi Faithcontender,

Obviously, I was misreading your previous answer. What would be an example of a statement (or, if a verbal statement is not required, a thought) about another person that would violate the "Judge not..." prohibition?

I hope you realize I'm not trying to argue -- I'm really interested in understanding how you view it.

Thanks,

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

Example of judging others.

Luke
18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

 

Lorelei replied, where I last said (given in italics):

Furthermore, not to judge is a good idea since only God can judge, do you agree?

Good!

And I hope you have read enough of my messages to know that I accuse no one either!

Something about that "big beam" in my own eye!

First of all, please know that the Church has not declared you to be "anathema"!

That application of that declaration was aimed at the individuals who initially began a heresy or otherwise bolted from the Church, with the novel ideas of doctrine the Church denies is true. And as to the "ex eclesia nullus salus" (Outside of the Church there is no salvation) I think I have covered already.

I will therefore refer you to the following link:

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/necessit.htm

I last posted the following from The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

Only you know why you do not enter it (The Church) since you are not convinced of the truth of the Catholic Church! God knows why too, therefore in His judgment of you before Him, the honesty in your heart in what you believe, we believe, is certainly taken into account. You believe, from the sincerity of your heart, that what you believe is true.

Now, I might suspect that you are not honest in what you believe from outside appearances, but "suspect" is all I can do; I certainly cannot condemn you (as an individual; the Church could formally excommunicate if the problem is a serious scandal that would warrant it). I can only state what I believe where you are in error and go on about my business. Only one time, in my 20 years of Catholic apologetics, have I had a person send me a private note that they are seriously considering converting to Catholicism (and the person included others besides myself as being convincing in our arguments.)

Of course you have that right, Lorelei, and in fact, I welcome that you look upon Catholic teachings and doctrine will a well-jaundiced eye!

But your last statement has a lot of "devil in the details" which gets us involved with the "works" that Paul speaks of, addressing the Jews who had the tendency to revert back to the old law, against James who spoke of a "Faith, without works, is dead." So, we are speaking of two different kinds of "works" here.

Therefore I must disagree that you might just think I will have no salvation because I believe "works are necessary for salvation."

Works of the old law? NO

Works that perpetuate, nourish and continue ones march down the path to salvation, YES!

Good for you, Lorelei! I would not require anything else from you but what you say here.

So long as you and I insist upon judging the issues, the doctrines and the beliefs we both hold so long as we do not question the contents of the heart, I again agree with you.

Please note that I am in a conference that tends to speak about Catholicism that I consider to be untrue and a distortion of what Catholicism teaches. And for the most part, I only speak up when I read of these distortions.

Otherwise, a discussion between a Baptist and a Methodist, for example, heated as it may be, will usually be ignored by me except and unless Catholicism is brought into the discussion.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

good post lorelei

 

I'd be interested in the outcome. I had an interesting experience Wednesday at our mid-week Bible Study and prayer service. We had a young man who came (by invitation), who is studying for the priesthood. Afterward his first comment was that he found the service "enlightening." (whether just to be polite or not I'm not sure). Then our Pastor engaged him in a discussion on the New Birth. During the discussion I thought of my friends here who post on BB, for his "Catholic Theology" is very much different from what you believe, and I told him bluntly that what he believes is not what the Catholic Church teaches. He replied that he was a liberal Catholic intending to reform the Catholic Church from within. He believes that all religions serve the same God, but just by a different name. They all have a different path to Heaven. (This is akin to Hinduism). I replied that by taking such a stand you call Jesus Christ a liar for He said that He is the only Way to Heaven. There is no other way (John 14:6). He tried to argue the point. We discussed many other things. But that is enough to give you an idea of the type of individual that is entering the Catholic priesthood. What is your opinion?
DHK

 

If we let the Catholic list of "Forbidden books" speak for itself.

If we let the "extermination policy" of Lateran IV speak for itself.

If we let Dr Carroll's statement that Bill Graham would absolutely be burned at the stake for preaching in the dark ages - what he preached in his life time -- speak for itself.

Then "the Catholic concept of judging others" was by all accounts not just "personnal" it was "leathal".

And this fact - we find admitted to by the Pope's own blue ribbon panel of scholars in 1999 as pointed out on another thread here.

Thank God they do not still make a practice of that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I'd be interested in the outcome. I had an interesting experience Wednesday at our mid-week Bible Study and prayer service. We had a young man who came (by invitation), who is studying for the priesthood. Afterward his first comment was that he found the service "enlightening." (whether just to be polite or not I'm not sure). Then our Pastor engaged him in a discussion on the New Birth. During the discussion I thought of my friends here who post on BB, for his "Catholic Theology" is very much different from what you believe, and I told him bluntly that what he believes is not what the Catholic Church teaches.</font>[/QUOTE]And he is a Catholic seminarian? Perhaps you could provide some of his "theology" that I might study and consider it.

Now, I am not an expert on theology, but I do the best I can from my experience in Catholicism, but I would be interested is hearing about what he is being taught in this seminary.

Hummm, I would have to hear what he said, in his words, as it Almost sounds like "universalism" to me.

Christ established His gospel message and His church as the "greased way" to heaven and even while others may not be members of that church, even in paganism, they may be "imperfect members" by their conduct in the natural law and the contents of their hearts.

Christ died for ALL of mankind, including those who have never heard of Him. and again, the odds are against them who are not in the fullness of his gospel message. And of course, the need is urgent that they be evangelized. Nevertheless, God is the ultimate judge of the heart - that is the bottom line.

What year is he in at the seminary he attends?

As for an opinion, I would have to hear more of what he says, preferebly from him directly. If you see him again, give him my E-mail address (See my profile) and I will find out quickly if he is willing to converse.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

emphasis mine

Is there a document somewhere that explains why the words "any one" here does not mean "any one?"

I say and emphatically believe that that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof.

I said it, but you tell me this doesn't apply to me? Why does this not mean what it says?</font>[/QUOTE]Do you publically profess what the Council of Trent is saying here, Lorelei, as a practicing Catholic who is defying the teachings of the Catholic Church?

If not, you are not included in the anathama, as you are removed by several generations from the author of the "heresy" you believe in from your early youthful training (presumably).

Church decrees such as you read here are directed to the authors of heresies that is under contention by the Church.

To be anathmatized, one must first be a Catholic to be anathmatized from!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Not riches, but God.
Not honors, but God.
Not distinction, but God.
Not dignities, but God.
Not advancement, but God.
God always and in everything.

- St. Vincent Pallotti -

 

Bill said -- Do you publically profess what the Council of Trent is saying here, Lorelei, as a practicing Catholic who is defying the teachings of the Catholic Church?

If not, you are not included in the anathama, as you are removed by several generations from the author of the "heresy" you believe in from your early youthful training (presumably).


In the exterminations of heretics practiced by the RCC in the dark ages - do you find this rule applied?

Dr Carroll states that Billy Graham WOULD be burned at the stake by the RCC for teaching what he taught in his lifetime. How does that assertion square with the spin that Bill is placing on the statements above?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The same question as listed on the opening post is contained in the tread on idolatry in the mass.

Now Bumped up to join this thread.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In the exterminations of heretics practiced by the RCC in the dark ages - do you find this rule applied?</font>[/QUOTE]False premise trap I will not fall into, since you want me to agree that the Church exterminated heretics.

In any case, the anathama rule would still only apply to the perpeterators of the heresy. Anyone in the family of the heretic who do not realize the error of heresy, including future generations who continue in the heresy, may be sublimely innocent.

Who is Dr. Carroll? In any case, he does not understand Catholicism very well, as obviously, Billy Graham was not a perpetuator of any heresy and therefore, would not be burned at the stake, something the state usually does, not the Church.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

EWTN's Dr Carroll has been authorotatively providing Catholic Answers on the subject of the History and practice of the Catholic church for a number of years.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As for the RCC's own statements on "extermination" --

For example, the Fourth Lateran Council, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared the following about exterminare;

(http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

In Christ,

Bob

 

But of course - Bill may be asking what modern Catholic leaders say about that history...

Thought you would never ask.

With such well documented examples of the RC policy of exterminare "extermination" in its "dark ages" how can "informed Catholics" continue to pursue a practice of "denial and equivocation" as "if" there ever existed an equivalent Christian denomination holding such absolute control over all of Europe for centuries - that also pursued such an explicit and blatant policy of "extermination".

The "answer" seems to be that there are credible Catholics who maintain integrity by admitting to the obvious history of the past and deal with the issue head-on instead of dodging it. (Or at least we find evidence that there are).

Consider the following news stories from Vatican City.

Notice "no equivocation".

Notice - refernce to the policy of torture and extermination listed previously.

How refreshing that there are some Catholics today willing to place the atrocities in a more "Christian light" rather than tyring to defend or minimalize monsterous acts of atrocity - or worse - continuing to demonize the victims in "true dark ages" spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I will have to look him up, but in any case, I think he is wrong, else you have taken him out of context, which I will determine if I can see the full text.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

Bob, unfortunately, seems to have a one-track mind, as all of his posts on all his threads are simply repeats of the same statements.

Here is what Dr. Carroll actually said, since Bob will not provide the quote for you:

"In a recent post I tried to clarify my position on this issue. I certainly do not advocate the restoration of the butning of heretics, because in the present climate of opinion it would hurt the Church, and I do not think it should have been done in the past, because we should not deliberately inflict such great pain, nor deprive the heretic of the oppotunity to repent. But I do understand why it was done in the past, for the reasons that several posters have stated. Billy Graham would have been seen as a heretic in the past, and he is in fact a heretic now, though he does love Christ and has done much good. - Dr. Carroll"