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Judge Paul Pressler
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
David, may I ask you a couple of questions and I am not trying to entrap you I simply am wondering where the dividing lines REALLY fall (without reading the books put out by either side).
Do you believe that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are literal or allegory?
Do you believe that the flood was literal (earthwide, etc.) or allegory?
Are you a professor, student or involved in a seminary? (I didn't look at your profile)
I am just curious to know what you really believe in relationship to what Pressler says he believes.
Thanks
Pressler came and spoke at SBTS last week for the 25 anniversary of the conservative resurgence (or takeover, depending on what side you view it on). Apparently he was well recieved but made an off-colored joke about the Episcopalian bishop situation. I think he did what was needed (with the SBC), but like almost all people that high in leadership, he likely has some major issues. I liken him to Luther in that Luther was a jerk at times and even an anti-Semite, but God used him powerfully to bring change. He was the man for the job at the time.
D.R.
D.R.
All about Grace
New Member
Pressler is a great man. If you don't believe it, just ask him. 
God definitely uses cracked vessels to accomplish his will. We are all living examples of that.
God definitely uses cracked vessels to accomplish his will. We are all living examples of that.
Somehow my book was "misplaced" I recently found it and started from page one again. I just finished it last night! I thought it was a great book. I understand that it was written from his perspective. But lets look at some facts. Noel Wesley Hollyfield, Jr 1976, a student at SBTS complied some stats of the beliefs of SBC college students, for his Masters of Theology.
...............diploma.....final year
born of a virgin....96%.........33%
Belief in Christ....99%.........60%
absoutely necessary
Info from page 346 A Hill on which to Die
To me it looks like the Lord DID call Judge Pressler to bring the SBC back to a biblical stance.
I would recommend this book, not only to all Southern Baptists, but all Baptist as well.
...............diploma.....final year
born of a virgin....96%.........33%
Belief in Christ....99%.........60%
absoutely necessary
Info from page 346 A Hill on which to Die
To me it looks like the Lord DID call Judge Pressler to bring the SBC back to a biblical stance.
I would recommend this book, not only to all Southern Baptists, but all Baptist as well.
I am sitting here looking at the book right now as a matter of fact
1. Guilt by association method
2. Selective memory concerning the elections, the impression is that all these people just showed out of the blue to vote out the liberals is not exactly what happened
3. The use of the word "liberal" for those that are not
4. Encouragement of the creation of "conservative" state conventions
5. Although I don't have any proof, I do question the use of the statistics to prove some major points about "liberals". Note: I would question the use of statistics regardless of the one using them, numbers are "capable" of saying or not saying many things depending on the one looking at them
1. Guilt by association method
2. Selective memory concerning the elections, the impression is that all these people just showed out of the blue to vote out the liberals is not exactly what happened
3. The use of the word "liberal" for those that are not
4. Encouragement of the creation of "conservative" state conventions
5. Although I don't have any proof, I do question the use of the statistics to prove some major points about "liberals". Note: I would question the use of statistics regardless of the one using them, numbers are "capable" of saying or not saying many things depending on the one looking at them
go2,
Questions re: a couple of your points:
2. Regardless of whether or not messengers "showed up out of the blue" or came in church vans or church buses, what difference does it make? No conservative church got more than 10 messengers, and moderate churches got the same full alotment of messengers did they not? Really never understood why this area was such a point of contention.
3. Pressler defines what he means by "liberal," "moderate," and "conservative" in the beginning of his book. Whether one agrees with his definitions is one thing, but he is consistent in his application of those definitions is he not? I'm by no means Pressler's biggest fan, but he's nothing if not consistent.
Questions re: a couple of your points:
2. Regardless of whether or not messengers "showed up out of the blue" or came in church vans or church buses, what difference does it make? No conservative church got more than 10 messengers, and moderate churches got the same full alotment of messengers did they not? Really never understood why this area was such a point of contention.
3. Pressler defines what he means by "liberal," "moderate," and "conservative" in the beginning of his book. Whether one agrees with his definitions is one thing, but he is consistent in his application of those definitions is he not? I'm by no means Pressler's biggest fan, but he's nothing if not consistent.
Also, point 4 on the state conventions.
I've often wondered how starting a competing state convention in Texas and Virginia is all that different than the CBF. Why is one okay and the other not?
Not trying to be argumentative, rather looking for answers to questions that I've never had answered sufficiently.
I've often wondered how starting a competing state convention in Texas and Virginia is all that different than the CBF. Why is one okay and the other not?
Not trying to be argumentative, rather looking for answers to questions that I've never had answered sufficiently.
Concerning:
2. To bus in people only for the presidential vote is contrary to the spirit of the convention, and that is what they did. That is why people had such a problem with what was done.
3. The agreement with his terms would obviously the point, people he called liberal simply are not and have never been. They may not agree with Pressler but is hardly the standard of biblical interpretaton and that doesn't make one a liberal.
4. CBF is not a state convention, it is a national organization that supports works and missionaries that are different then IMB and NAMB. The SBTC and the BGCT support many of the same works and missionaries. Presseler pushed for this type of happening thinking that there would be flocks of churches standing in line to run the "liberals" out of business.
It is interesting that when Missouri wanted to start another state convention, but with a moderate bent, the SBC said no thanks. So it is ok for them to start another state convention, but not anyone else. Typical of Pressler and he boys (they wouldn't allow women) do as we say not as we do mentality.
2. To bus in people only for the presidential vote is contrary to the spirit of the convention, and that is what they did. That is why people had such a problem with what was done.
3. The agreement with his terms would obviously the point, people he called liberal simply are not and have never been. They may not agree with Pressler but is hardly the standard of biblical interpretaton and that doesn't make one a liberal.
4. CBF is not a state convention, it is a national organization that supports works and missionaries that are different then IMB and NAMB. The SBTC and the BGCT support many of the same works and missionaries. Presseler pushed for this type of happening thinking that there would be flocks of churches standing in line to run the "liberals" out of business.
It is interesting that when Missouri wanted to start another state convention, but with a moderate bent, the SBC said no thanks. So it is ok for them to start another state convention, but not anyone else. Typical of Pressler and he boys (they wouldn't allow women) do as we say not as we do mentality.
JGrayhound
New Member
It seems there are some urban legends about "bussing people" that are perpetuated over and over again.
The messengers spoke. End of story.
The messengers spoke. End of story.
Not exactly an urban legend, pressler and patterson have spoken of it themselves. Go back and look at the counts for the voting of the presidency and the number of people that stuck around for the missions talks. I was there for the whole thing in Dallas - people voted and left, the hall was half full for the rest of the convention.
25 year later you are correct - the messengers spoke and the fundies get to re write the the rules and attempt to rewrite history.
To the fundies, liberal is anyone who disagree with them on any thing. they started with innerancy, then went to putting out a faith statement that went way beyond the normal function of a faith statement (sign or you are a liberal), next - if you do not homeschool you are a liberal, or how can we outconservative Mohler.
This generation of SBC leadership is getting old - with the next we will see things begin to move back to the middle - it has already been noted that some in the fundy leadership are afraid that they are running off new talent.
25 year later you are correct - the messengers spoke and the fundies get to re write the the rules and attempt to rewrite history.
To the fundies, liberal is anyone who disagree with them on any thing. they started with innerancy, then went to putting out a faith statement that went way beyond the normal function of a faith statement (sign or you are a liberal), next - if you do not homeschool you are a liberal, or how can we outconservative Mohler.
This generation of SBC leadership is getting old - with the next we will see things begin to move back to the middle - it has already been noted that some in the fundy leadership are afraid that they are running off new talent.
What if the "liberals" had won one of the close elections? Would you be so cavalier about how they won? Somehow I doubt it
Note: I don't consider myself Southern Baptist anymore. I have moved on and want nothing to do with gaining control back of the SBC, it doesn't interest me in the least. If the SBC closed it's doors tonight it would barely be a blip on my screen. We now support our missions through the BGCT and whatever money we collect for SBC missions is sent there out of respect for the desire of the church members. Somebody asked for an opinion about Pressler, I gave my opinion
Note: I don't consider myself Southern Baptist anymore. I have moved on and want nothing to do with gaining control back of the SBC, it doesn't interest me in the least. If the SBC closed it's doors tonight it would barely be a blip on my screen. We now support our missions through the BGCT and whatever money we collect for SBC missions is sent there out of respect for the desire of the church members. Somebody asked for an opinion about Pressler, I gave my opinion
go2,
If a moderate had won, it would still have made absolutely no difference what mode of transportation messengers took to get to the convention hall.
Jimmy,
Surely you don't suggest that out of nearly 26,000 messengers in Dallas in '86, that only messengers from conservative churches left after the presidential election. Common sense says that a sizable chunk of both groups were only there for one reason.
But some urban legends just never die.
If a moderate had won, it would still have made absolutely no difference what mode of transportation messengers took to get to the convention hall.
Jimmy,
Surely you don't suggest that out of nearly 26,000 messengers in Dallas in '86, that only messengers from conservative churches left after the presidential election. Common sense says that a sizable chunk of both groups were only there for one reason.
But some urban legends just never die.
WallyGator
New Member
Yup RandR,
They were scatering like fleas on ahound dog. The only difference was one group were boarding the many many buses lined up close in front, while the other group was walking 4 to 6 blocks to find their car or church bus.
WallyGator
They were scatering like fleas on ahound dog. The only difference was one group were boarding the many many buses lined up close in front, while the other group was walking 4 to 6 blocks to find their car or church bus.
WallyGator
Rand,
What I suggest is that those who only came to vote for the president - largely the pressler/patterson supporters, left as soon as the presidential election was over.
Old news, but just because it is old news does not make it urban legend. I was there and witnessed it - were you?
What I suggest is that those who only came to vote for the president - largely the pressler/patterson supporters, left as soon as the presidential election was over.
Old news, but just because it is old news does not make it urban legend. I was there and witnessed it - were you?