Judicial hardening, Secondary Means

[webdog]

Was reading the account of Pharaoh again yesterday. It is true that Pharaoh hardened his heart and God hardened his heart. Always took this to mean that after Pharaoh hardened his heart enough, God put the nail in the coffin. However, the continual appeal by Moses during the latter plagues made me re-think my own understanding (see, I'm not as hard headed as many of the cal's believe ). I'm not sure they are separate events, meaning the source of the hardening never changed, but the substance that was hardened (sun melts butter and hardens concrete, yet the sun never changes).

I can do many things to make you not be able to see. I can spray you with mace, poke you in the eye, blindfold you, throw sand in your face, pluck out an eye, turn out the lights, etc. I can still say "I blinded you". Could it not be said that God hardened Pharaoh, not judicially, but by the circumstances surrounding Pharaoh, provoking him and his people, perseverance, physical ailments, continual protectiveness and blessing of the Jews, calling out Pharaoh's own deity complex, etc?

Couldn't this same approach have been taken with Israel?

 

[Iconoclast]

Was reading the account of Pharaoh again yesterday. It is true that Pharaoh hardened his heart and God hardened his heart. Always took this to mean that after Pharaoh hardened his heart enough, God put the nail in the coffin. However, the continual appeal by Moses during the latter plagues made me re-think my own understanding (see, I'm not as hard headed as many of the cal's believe ). I'm not sure they are separate events, meaning the source of the hardening never changed, but the substance that was hardened (sun melts butter and hardens concrete, yet the sun never changes).

I can do many things to make you not be able to see. I can spray you with mace, poke you in the eye, blindfold you, throw sand in your face, pluck out an eye, turn out the lights, etc. I can still say "I blinded you". Could it not be said that God hardened Pharaoh, not judicially, but by the circumstances surrounding Pharaoh, provoking him and his people, perseverance, physical ailments, continual protectiveness and blessing of the Jews, calling out Pharaoh's own deity complex, etc?

Couldn't this same approach have been taken with Israel?

Yes....agreed:wavey: good thought:wavey:

WD....The results come out the same....what we all forget sometimes is we are discussing real people and real lives....in real time.

When we read of their condition as revealed in scripture.....we are not given an exact timeline too often....as to when what was determined by God in eternity....[the means]....actually comes to pass in real time,,,,

example;

24And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

25But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

26For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

28Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

In our evangelism...we should be totally about prayer to be faithful towards the persons soul....as far as we are concerned..from our point of view...their eternal destiny is still on the line!!

example 2

16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

17But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

:wavey: Pray, live Holy, and witness.....all the time

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes....agreed:wavey: good thought:wavey:

WD....The results come out the same....what we all forget sometimes is we are discussing real people and real lives....in real time.

When we read of their condition as revealed in scripture.....we are not given an exact timeline too often....as to when what was determined by God in eternity....[the means]....actually comes to pass in real time,,,,

example;




In our evangelism...we should be totally about prayer to be faithful towards the persons soul....as far as we are concerned..from our point of view...their eternal destiny is still on the line!!

example 2
:wavey: Pray, live Holy, and witness.....all the time

Think question is was Judicial hardening by God towards the jews JUST a special case for time of Christ coming, or are ALL in sin and dead to Christ until,God wakes them up?

Know that Skan has used that to try to support notion that Gospel of John does not NOT support election and salavtion as cals use it, as he states that those examples concerning the jews being blind and deaf to message of Christ "just "special case!"

 

[Winman]

It is actually shown how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Look at some examples;

Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

How did God harden Pharaoh's heart here? He embarrassed and humiliated him publicly. Pharaoh must have felt as equally as powerful as the God of Moses when his magicians were able to turn their rods into serpents. But when Aaron's rod swallowed up Pharaoh's rods he was humiliated in front of all his subjects.

Exo 7:22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.

Again, Pharaoh's magicians were able to imitate the miracle performed by Moses and Aaron. You can imagine Pharaoh being filled with pride, "anything you can do, I can do" attitude. He saw no reason to fear God when his servants could perform these same miracles.

I could go on, but you see a battle of wills between God and Pharaoh. Instead of humbling himself, Pharaoh got more and more angry and obstinate.

There is nothing special about this, this occurs every day in normal life. A person who is full of pride is embarrassed or humiliated. Instead of humbling themselves, they become angry and stubborn. This happens between family members at times, and folks will not speak to each other for years. Sometimes the matter that started the argument is very minor and unimportant, but there ensues a battle to see who is right and who is wrong.

One of the worst arguments I ever had with my wife was over the words to a song. I corrected her which embarrassed her. She insisted she was correct, I insisted she was wrong. It was a stupid argument, I should have overlooked her minor and unimportant error. This thing actually turned into a heated argument and we did not speak to each other for a week. We BOTH became hardened. This is how pride affects folks.

God didn't have to supernaturally cause Pharaoh to be hardened, although he certainly used supernatural miracles to do so. What hardened Pharaoh was humiliating and embarrassing him publicly, God showing his power was greater than Pharaoh's. The ancient Pharaohs believed themselves descended from the gods, so this was very insulting to Pharaoh. He had a very high opinion of himself and his pride was injured by these simple men who could perform great miracles.

 

[DaChaser1]

It is actually shown how God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Look at some examples;

Exo 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

How did God harden Pharaoh's heart here? He embarrassed and humiliated him publicly. Pharaoh must have felt as equally as powerful as the God of Moses when his magicians were able to turn their rods into serpents. But when Aaron's rod swallowed up Pharaoh's rods he was humiliated in front of all his subjects.

Exo 7:22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.

Again, Pharaoh's magicians were able to imitate the miracle performed by Moses and Aaron. You can imagine Pharaoh being filled with pride, "anything you can do, I can do" attitude. He saw no reason to fear God when his servants could perform these same miracles.

I could go on, but you see a battle of wills between God and Pharaoh. Instead of humbling himself, Pharaoh got more and more angry and obstinate.

There is nothing special about this, this occurs every day in normal life. A person who is full of pride is embarrassed or humiliated. Instead of humbling themselves, they become angry and stubborn. This happens between family members at times, and folks will not speak to each other for years. Sometimes the matter that started the argument is very minor and unimportant, but there ensues a battle to see who is right and who is wrong.

One of the worst arguments I ever had with my wife was over the words to a song. I corrected her which embarrassed her. She insisted she was correct, I insisted she was wrong. It was a stupid argument, I should have overlooked her minor and unimportant error. This thing actually turned into a heated argument and we did not speak to each other for a week. We BOTH became hardened. This is how pride affects folks.

God didn't have to supernaturally cause Pharaoh to be hardened, although he certainly used supernatural miracles to do so. What hardened Pharaoh was humiliating and embarrassing him publicly, God showing his power was greater than Pharaoh's. The ancient Pharaohs believed themselves descended from the gods, so this was very insulting to Pharaoh. He had a very high opinion of himself and his pride was injured by these simple men who could perform great miracles.

What is interesting is that God chose this pharoah for His purposes, as he was a vessel designed for destruction, fit for wrath!

God chose him, and the pharoah did what he desired to do!