av1611jim said:
I'll not derail this thread but to say this:
Proverbs 17:11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him.
You are not going to find God approving of rebellion anywhere in Scripture.
Hi Jim. Though I am a constitutional proponent, I struggle with this issue as there is no discounting the scripture you cited. Nor can we discount a verse like...
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." - 1 Samuel 15:23
...or the verses that describe insurrection so negatively (Ezra 4:19, Mark 15:7, Acts 18:12). So whether or not the rebellion of the colonists against a King was a righteous event, especially considering the citizens of the colonies were in a far less oppressed situation than citizens of today are under the current tyrant, is an excellent question.
Nevertheless, although the "freedoms" I enjoy in this country are pleasant, I really had no choice in the matter of the place of my birth.
It's a question we should ask ourselves. What kind of Christians would we be if we were born in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany etc? What kind of Christians are we when blessed with such religious freedom?
Your silly retort that I should "kiss Prince Charles royal ring" is uncalled for and is a blatant case of one 'christian' deriding another, which BTW is sin.
Don't sweat that too much, one can typically get a sense for how much talk radio or Fox News another listens too by what they believe qualifies as debate.
I am grateful for our "freedoms" which the rebellion won for us. These freedoms allow me to preach the Gospel without fear of being shot. At the same time however, those very freedoms have also enabled evil men to kill 40 million unborn babies in this nation. Is it truly something to "celebrate" or should we mourn what those "freedoms" have cost in innocent lives?
I would disagree that the rebellion led to the murdering of 40 million unborn babies. Those murders occurred as a result of a Supreme Court radically diverging from the Constitution and from the branches of gov't responsible for putting them in check, not doing so. It also came about as a result of Americans compromising and allowing such an atrocious decision and most importantly from each individual woman who killed her unborn child.
And one more thing I might add. The church as a whole in America is woefully impotent BECAUSE of these freedoms. It has gotten so soft that we often debate meaningless issues rather than pounding the streets preaching the Gospel to every passerby. We can't even agree what sin IS anymore. It is persecution alone which strengthens the church, for it is persecution which "weeds out" the false professors. And although I do not pine for persecution, one need only look to countries in which active persecution of the church is rampant and one will see that the underground church is much more effective that our "free" church.
I would suggest that the church as a whole in America is not free, as they have yolked up with the state via incorporation and 501c3 associations. This has placed them under the authority of the state as they are not allowed to say things that are opposed to "fundamental public policy" and they are afraid of the IRS threatening their tax status and properties.
Now you may quip something like "if you don't like it here then move" and you would be exercising a "right" won by the rebellion, but you would hardly be engaging in intelligent discourse.
That's a talk radio / O'Reilly tactic and you're right, it is inconsistent with intelligent discourse.
For every "good" thing you may name which the rebellion "won" for us, I can and will counter with ten which it has cost us. And I surmise that you can also.
No sir. I do not see the rebellion as an overall good thing at all.
Rebellion is certainly not a good thing and ultimately that is the condition this world, particularly America, is currently in. Children are rebelling against their parents. Wives are rebelling against their husbands. Men are not putting themselves under the authority of Godly preachers. Contemporarily in the United States, folks are rebelling against the Constitution (even if it was possibly birthed in iniquity) and in the past our country rebelled against a King. If history demonstrates nothing else, it demonstrates that all of man's efforts at governing himself (and others) have failed.
The best hope for government...
"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city." - Hebrews 11:16