"just" calvinist

[David Lamb]

According to Pastor Greg Nichols, Grand Rapids Reformed Baptist Church, Baptist churches should reject the error of congregational church government and adopt presbyterial local church government instead.


When Should a Christian Leave a Church?
By John G. Reisinger

"The following article is written primarily for Reformed Baptists only because that is the group with which I have been identified for over twenty years. . . .

"One of the greatest tragedies of our past efforts as Baptists was our use of nothing but Presbyterian literature. We set up the conferences, got those to attend whom we had taught the truth of grace, and then we stuffed Presbyterian books and speakers down their throat by the carload. It is time to set up a BAPTIST Banner of Truth. It is time to quit feeding the best of our young men to Presbyterian schools. It is time that sincere Baptist sheep stop leaving Reformed Baptist churches only to find a welcome nowhere but in a Presbyterian church.

I don't really accept your line of reasoning. Yes, there are certainly many areas where Reformed Baptist theology is similar to or identical with that of Presbyterianism. That does not of necessity mean that it grew out of Presbyterianism, any more than the fact that other Baptists share many doctrines with non-baptistic Arminianism necessarily indicates their roots. Also, the First London Baptist Confession of Faith was originally written in 1644, 2 years before the Westminster Confession. (I understand that the reason it it sometimes called "The 1646 Baptist Confession" is only that a new edition came out that year.)

Incidentally, I do not recognise the situation John G. Reisinger describes when he says that Baptists (I assume Reformed Baptists) use nothing but Presbyterian literature. Nor do Banner of Truth only publish Presbyterian authors. A quick look at their online catalogue showed titles by several baptist authors, including 15 by Spurgeon, and others by Bernard Honeysett, Alec Taylor, Al Martin, John Benton, Peter Jeffrey, Andrew Swanson, Robert Oliver, Geoff Thomas, Stuart Olyott, W. J. Seaton, and Walt Chantry, who is the current editor (and has been since 2002) of the Banner of Truth magazine. I should say that I have only listed those BoT authors who I know to be baptists - there are probably others.

Maybe where you are, baptist churches are "feeding the best of their young men to Presbyterian schools." I have not heard of that happenning here, though it may do - I don't claim omniscience. :laugh: There are seminaries and collegies that are Reformed in nature, but have not denominational leaning, for instance the Wales Evangelical School of Theology - see www.west.org.uk There are others which are both Reformed and baptistic, such as the London Reformed Baptist Seminary.

 

[psalms109:31]

Weird understanding

Again Ps,you have shown no scriptural proof that the rich young ruler was drawn, called and chosen.It's just not there in Holy Writ.The Bible is your authority, right?

You do not have the definition of chosen and drawn do you. He went to Jesus he was drawn, God told him to follow Him, he was chosen.

What ever you are going to argue the fact. God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, you going to just have to believe God. I cannot force scripture, because like most men they will change the meaning of words so their doctrine stands not the word of God.

1 Timothy 2:
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

[Rippon]

You do not have the definition of chosen and drawn do you. He went to Jesus he was drawn, God told him to follow Him, he was chosen.

Rip: For those of you taking notes: Ps. insists that the rich young ruler was called,chosen and drawn.I told him that none of that was said of him in the Scripture. But that doesn't seem to concern Ps. at all. Ps., if in-fact the rich young ruler later came to faith, the Bible doesn't reveal that. In this passage of Scripture calling, chosen and drawn are not in evidence at all. It's solely in your mind. You are the one foisting things upon the Word of God which are not there.
Just because he sought out Jesus does not qualify as being drawn in the biblical sense -- as derived in John chapter 6. There is no mention of his being called of God. He is not once mentioned as being chosen or elect either. You're fighting a losing battle. If it's not in Scripture ( listen closely ) it's not there.
Besides, you have a rather weak view of the doctrine(s) of grace. Do you know what has been referenced as 'The Golden Chain'?Look at Romans 8:30 : "And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorfied."( NRSV )

All, each and every one of the predestined,called,justified and glorfied are the very same people. None of them are left between the cracks. All of them are elect and known as the glorified even before they die. Verses 31-39 speak of the comforting truth that none of these saints will ever be separated from God's love as known through the Lord Jesus Christ.

I cannot force scripture, because like most men they will change the meaning of words so their doctrine stands not the word of God.

Rip: I think I have proven over and over that you have been guilty in this regard. But your doctrine will not stand since it's false.

 

[psalms109:31]

Blind man to see

Is is in scripture the rich ruler was drawn to Jesus and chosen to follow Jesus, but I cannot help you see.

I am not going to argue with you, if you cannot see what I do, but pray for you.

I love you very much and want to spread the message of Jesus Christ that God loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. I'm sorry that men have been sent out with their own message.

As the scripture say's

Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

I must do what it takes to show the world God's love through me. We have good news for the world, if you don't want to believe it or not my brother

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[Rippon]

Is is in scripture the rich ruler was drawn to Jesus and chosen to follow Jesus, but I cannot help you see.

Rip: Your cited passages in Luke and 2 Corinthians have nothing to do with your unfoundecd claim.You have come up empty -- again Ps.

The rich young ruler was not drawn, called and chosen. I know it must give you some sort of comfort to believe that -- but the Scriptures give you no such support.Yield to the Word of God.

 

[psalms109:31]

I'm founded

THe scripture does support that the young rich ruler was drawn and chosen, but you do not see it.

He went to Jesus He was drawn and He was chosen Jesus told Him to follow Him. It is in black and white and you cannot change it, but you can deny you see it.

I have yeilded to the scripture and to say I haven't is a lie, you do not know my heart, God does.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture From TNIV

THe scripture does support that the young rich ruler was drawn and chosen, but you do not see it.

He went to Jesus He was drawn and He was chosen Jesus told Him to follow Him. It is in black and white and you cannot change it, but you can deny you see it.

Where is the Scripture? Produce the verse that states your unique idea.What version spells that out -- one of your own making?So it's your belief ( sans Scripture) that the RYR's name is in the Lamb's Book Of Life?! Those called,drawn and chosen are all going to glory. The RYR walked away from Christ. God brings each and every called, drawn, and chosen one to Heaven -- none of them are left behind. Yet in the account of the RYR he turned back and no longer followed Jesus."They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us;but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." ( 1 John 2:19 )People fitting that description ( see John 6:66 also) were never drawn, called and chosen. Face this:"All whom the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." ( John 6:37 ) Ponder this:"... I shall lose none of all those he has given me..." ( John 6:39 )

The Scripture is silent upon your wild conjectures. If the RYR later came to faith it is not revealed in Holy Writ. To continue to make claims about something that does not exist in God's Word is sinful.

 

[David Lamb]

THe scripture does support that the young rich ruler was drawn and chosen, but you do not see it.

He went to Jesus He was drawn and He was chosen Jesus told Him to follow Him. It is in black and white and you cannot change it, but you can deny you see it.

I have yeilded to the scripture and to say I haven't is a lie, you do not know my heart, God does.

All the scriptural accounts of the rich young ruler tell us that this man came to Jesus. Matthew 19.16:

Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"


​

Mark 10.17:

Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"


​

Luke 18.18 doesn't even mention "came":

Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"


​

So when you say that scripture does support that the young rich ruler being drawn and chosen, you must be thinking of some other passage, because those things are certainly not stated in the accounts of the incident itself. If that is so, could you tell us where it is?

We certainly cannot make too much of the fact that the man came to Jesus, for so did the Sadducees (Luke.20.27), so did the chief priests, scribes and elders (Mark 11.27)

 

[psalms109:31]

Comming

Him comming to Jesus means He was drawn. We can't come to Jesus unless we were drawn.

Here is where he was chosen.

Matthew 19:21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

He was drawn and chosen and the scripture shows it.

As the scriptuire says

Matthew 19:
The Little Children and Jesus
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

 

[mparkerfd20]

Him comming to Jesus means He was drawn. We can't come to Jesus unless we were drawn.

Here is where he was chosen.

Matthew 19:21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

He was drawn and chosen and the scripture shows it.

As the scriptuire says

Matthew 19:
The Little Children and Jesus
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

That's one huge leap to say Matthew 19:21 shows that he was called.

 

[psalms109:31]

Follow me

No leap, just the truth. When Jesus tells you to follow Him you have been chosen my brother no matter how you slice it.

You can't just come to Jesus and have life, you must believe all the scripture, you must remain in Jesus and be saved.

People who live on a verse at a time can never see the truth.

 

[mparkerfd20]

No leap, just the truth. When Jesus tells you to follow Him you have been chosen my brother no matter how you slice it.

Do you not see the "if" and the "then"?

You can't just come to Jesus and have life, you must believe all the scripture, you must remain in Jesus and be saved.

People who live on a verse at a time can never see the truth.

Yet that is exactly what you are trying to do with this verse it seems. Even worse you seem to be missing the point entirely.

 

[psalms109:31]

If then

If is given away his richen then follow Him.

Jesus is no deceiver He wouldn't make an offer to the young rich ruler that God did not give him the ability to do.

 

[mparkerfd20]

If is given away his richen then follow Him.

Jesus is no deceiver He wouldn't make an offer to the young rich ruler that God did not give him the ability to do.

The RYR asked a question... Jesus answered it. No deception is there and no "choosing" either.

Had he been chosen he WOULD have sold his possessions and given to the poor.

 

[psalms109:31]

Truth

There is always an If and then, but when Jesus tells you to follow Him you are chosen.

Being chosen doesn't mean you going to follow Him.

You have to be chosen, being chosen doesn't save remaining in Jesus does.

 

[mparkerfd20]

There is always an If and then, but when Jesus tells you to follow Him you are chosen.

mparkerfd20: He didn't directly tell him to follow him in this verse. There was an if and a then.

Being chosen doesn't mean you going to follow Him.

mparkerfd20: Yes it does. Otherwise you're dangerously questioning the sovereignty of God.

You have to be chosen, being chosen doesn't save remaining in Jesus does.

mparkerfd20: I agree that being chosen in and of itself doesn't save. As for the RYR story I'll just have to respectfully disagree with you on him being called, chosen, and then lost. Doesn't look like I'm gonna change your mind nor you mine, so I'm happy with leaving it at that.
Have a blessed day. :thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

If and

It was directed to him to follow Jesus and he was chosen. If or then has no bearing to it, he was chosen.

I never question the sovreignty of God.

What His word says will happen. Whosoever believes and remains in Jesus shall be saved.

If God and His sovreignty wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and His word say's He will only save those who remain in Jesus, His chosen then who am I to question God.

 

[mparkerfd20]

It was directed to him to follow Jesus and he was chosen. If or then has no bearing to it, he was chosen.

Disagree.

I never question the sovreignty of God.

What His word says will happen. Whosoever believes and remains in Jesus shall be saved.

Agreed. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. " John 10:27-28

If God and His sovreignty wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and His word say's He will only save those who remain in Jesus, His chosen then who am I to question God.

You and I both are nothing and no one to question God. To God be the glory!

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Jesus told Him to follow Him so He was chosen I can't help it you don't see it.

Who is His sheep. It is the one's the Father has given to Him. Who are the one's who God has given to Jesus.

Let the word of God tell you not men and their ideas.

Isaiah 25:9
In that day they will say, "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation."

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

Psalm 22:5
They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.


Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your paths ]

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

It surely isn't the wise and learned that God revealed the truth to, He has hidden the truth from them.

 

[mparkerfd20]

:BangHead:

Like I said we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not the RYR was chosen or not. God bless.