just HOW Do You see God Handling "problem" of Those Who NEVER Heard About Jesus?

[Tom Butler]

The Gospel IS the chosen agent/means by which He has elected to have His saints receive Jesus Christ and Eternal Life....

God places burden on his Body on the earth to go out and preach/teach to all, so that SOME might come to faith and believe in the name of His Son jesus...

NONE will have any excuse...

isn't that the lament of many Arminians, that God is unjuist/cruel in that he deals unfairly with people, everyone not giving "same chance?"

Oh, I agree. God will make sure that his elect hear the gospel. But that's not what we're discussing. And most of us agree (but not all) that those who never hear the gospel cannot be saved. And many will hear the gospel and reject it. They will not be saved, either.

The question is, how can God condemn one who has never heard the gospel, never heard of Jesus Christ, never been presented with the claims of the gospel. My view of that question is what I discussed in post #13.

.The answer goes against our sense of fairness. Some have never heard the gospel? That's not fair. They're condemned anyway? That's not fair.

So, to make it fair, we come up with a couple of scenarios. One is that some way, somehow, God has given them the gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it's never been preached to them.

Another is, that God gave them some light (creation), evidence of a Creator; they rejected the light they had so God is no obligated to give them more light.

But even that's not fair, one might say. God gave many the gospel including me), but gave some (a primitive tribe in Southern America) only evidence of creation.

And then, another view is that since God can't condemn one for rejecting a Christ of whom they have never heard, there must be another way for them to be saved. Otherwise, God is not fair.

My answer to all those things is that I don't want God's fairness. I want his mercy. If God had been fair, all of us would stand condemned.

 

[JesusFan]

Oh, I agree. God will make sure that his elect hear the gospel. But that's not what we're discussing. And most of us agree (but not all) that those who never hear the gospel cannot be saved. And many will hear the gospel and reject it. They will not be saved, either.

The question is, how can God condemn one who has never heard the gospel, never heard of Jesus Christ, never been presented with the claims of the gospel. My view of that question is what I discussed in post #13.

.The answer goes against our sense of fairness. Some have never heard the gospel? That's not fair. They're condemned anyway? That's not fair.

So, to make it fair, we come up with a couple of scenarios. One is that some way, somehow, God has given them the gospel of Jesus Christ, even though it's never been preached to them.

Another is, that God gave them some light (creation), evidence of a Creator; they rejected the light they had so God is no obligated to give them more light.

But even that's not fair, one might say. God gave many the gospel including me), but gave some (a primitive tribe in Southern America) only evidence of creation.

And then, another view is that since God can't condemn one for rejecting a Christ of whom they have never heard, there must be another way for them to be saved. Otherwise, God is not fair.

My answer to all those things is that I don't want God's fairness. I want his mercy. If God had been fair, all of us would stand condemned.

I have heard 4 basic things on this discussion

God will continue to give more light IF they respond to general revelation in nature (Arminian view)
God will make sure His elect somehow will get message out to them (calvinist)
God will know what they would have done IF did actual get the Gospel message
God will treat them like he does those under Age of accountibility sinners, covered by Cross of jesus Christ, as never were able to hear the Message

Or
ALL go to hell..period...

 

[webdog]

Tom, that question has already been answered on this thread. Its also not an "either/or" regarding fairness and mercy. Based what He has given us that I outlined in my first response God is both.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, that question has already been answered on this thread. Its also not an "either/or" regarding fairness and mercy. Based what He has given us that I outlined in my first response God is both.

All the scriptures you quoted are certainly true. But none of those verses in your first post mention Jesus Christ. Are you suggesting that the Light that has been given to all is sufficient, without reference to Jesus. In other words, is all we need to know about Jesus contained in the Light?

If it is, how is it true?
If it's not sufficient, what do we do now?

 

[MB]

I believe everyone is interested in the questions of life. The Bible says seek and you will find. I believe this also applies to the questions of where we came from. If someone just searches for the truth of that one thing I believe they will find the answer because God will provide it.
MB

 

[quantumfaith]

On such an issue as this, I am so glad that God has a much higher pay grade than do I. It may well be that we (all of us) don't have all the answers theologically, logically, philosophically et al.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Gloope1...(bolding mine)

The Bible tells us in Titus 2:11, "for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." This and the other aforementioned verses tell me that no one who stands before the throne of judgment someday will have the "I never heard" excuse.

Absolutely. The scriptures are so clear, yet they seem to go...wooosh...right over the heads of some on here.

 

[Rippon]

Do you actually think that God is going to condemn millions to hell for rejecting a message that the never heard!

God has, and shall, condemn mutiplied millions to Hell who have never heard because of their sin --not because they rejected a message they never heard.

 

[Rippon]

The Bible tells us in Titus 2:11, "for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." This and the other aforementioned verses tell me that no one who stands before the throne of judgment someday will have the "I never heard" excuse.

Many actually have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But that is not why they are condemned. They are condemned for their sin.

Regarding Titus 2:11: Do you think that means that every single individual who has and shall live (including the many millions before Christ came) has been a witness to the grace of Christ?

 

[Rippon]

Absolutely. The scriptures are so clear, yet they seem to go...wooosh...right over the heads of some on here.

I "wooosh" you would would reconsider your attitude.

 

[gloopey1]

Many actually have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But that is not why they are condemned. They are condemned for their sin.

Regarding Titus 2:11: Do you think that means that every single individual who has and shall live (including the many millions before Christ came) has been a witness to the grace of Christ?

I was not discussing the standard by which men will be judged, I was pointing out that this excuse will not be available to those who rejected Him. Many excuses will be made by sinful men on that Day; however, this will not be one of them. Even these will have to admit that they heard, but never responded. I do believe that all men have heard and will hear.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Rippon...

God has, and shall, condemn mutiplied millions to Hell who have never heard because of their sin --not because they rejected a message they never heard.

Well, of course we all sin, nobody disputes that, but where do you get this idea that there are people who "never heard"?

Certainly not the scriptures.

The scriptures inform us that...

That..(Jesus)..was the true Light which gives Light to every man coming into the world"

And there are so many other scriptures that support that truth.

Thank God for His magnificent provision for all to have the opportunity to choose wisely and be saved.

Of course there will always be those who reject. The majority, actually.

What a terrible thing, but God will give them what they have chosen.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Gloopeye1...

I have several books published by the late Zane Hodges and had the opportunity to speak to him personally twice over the phone. He definitely had insight into the Word of God that the average Southern Baptist lacks.

I have a book by Zane Hodges from back in the 80's. It is just excellant.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rippon...



Where do you get this idea that there are people who "never heard"?
From Scripture of course

Certainly not the scriptures.
..yes exactly from scripture
The scriptures inform us that...

[QUOTE] 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Thank God for His magnificent provision for all to have the opportunity to choose wisely and be saved.
This is just not so...you can believe what you want, but this is error
Of course there will always be those who reject. The majority, actually.
They are born in that condition
What a terrible thing, but God will give them what they have chosen.[/QUOTE]

Totally wrong...AIC.....you keep mis-using Jn1:9...everytime

 

[Alive in Christ]

I "wooosh" you would would reconsider your attitude.

Huh? What do you mean?

There wasnt the slightest bit of "mean-ness" or vitriol, or aggression in my post at all.

It was 100% civil and friendly.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I posted...

Thank God for His magnificent provision for all to have the opportunity to choose wisely and be saved.

And you responded....

This is just not so...you can believe what you want, but this is error.

You are entitled to your opinion. And I know that Calvin, and his writings, are considered the "authority" for you guys. I understand that.

I said...

Of course there will always be those who reject. The majority, actually

And you said...

They are born in that condition

In the opinion of Calvin...but I am going to stick with Gods scriptures.


I said...

What a terrible thing, but God will give them what they have chosen.

And you responded...

Totally wrong...AIC.....you keep mis-using Jn1:9...everytime

You are of course intitled to your opinions and views.


Brother Iconoclast....

You have every right in the world to cling to your calvinism teachings. *some* of those teaching are in fact good and true.

However...as for me, I am convinced that the *better* way to go is to be informed by the scriptures written by God Himself, rather than the speculations and convictions authored by a man.

God bless.

 

[convicted1]

Just curious, which "camp" do you see yourself in, if neither Arminian/calvinist?

If webdog likes "beenie weenies", he just might be in the Van de "Camp"......I know, oh brother!! LOL

 

[convicted1]

The Gospel IS the chosen agent/means by which He has elected to have His saints receive Jesus Christ and Eternal Life....

The GOSPEL is God's power to save the sinner. Read Romans 1:16 very closely:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

When God shows a sinner their lost condition, He is ready to save them right then and there, plain and simple. That is the GOSPEL being presented to them, plain as day!!

God places burden on his Body on the earth to go out and preach/teach to all, so that SOME might come to faith and believe in the name of His Son Jesus...

I also agree with this. But God can, and does, save outside of the "gospel message"

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Where is the natural preacher at here???

NONE will have any excuse...

AMEN!!!

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

So yes, they are without excuse, Brother!! Good job!! You're getting there!! Hang in there, Brother!! You catching on!!!

isn't that the lament of many Arminians, that God is unjuist/cruel in that he deals unfairly with people, everyone not giving "same chance?"

I have nothing to lament about, Brother! I know that if my wife dies lost, she had a chance first to go to heaven. I do not worry about the call coming to her, but rather, how she handles it when it comes to her!!!


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[gloopey1]

[/COLOR]

Thank God for His magnificent provision for all to have the opportunity to choose wisely and be saved.
This is just not so...you can believe what you want, but this is error
Of course there will always be those who reject. The majority, actually.
They are born in that condition
What a terrible thing, but God will give them what they have chosen.

Totally wrong...AIC.....you keep mis-using Jn1:9...everytime[/QUOTE]
The book of Romans is written to believers. Contrary to popular opinion, it does not teach pople who are already saved how to "test" themselves for verification. The "salvation" spoken of in chapter 10 is deliverance for the saint, not eternal life for the lost.