Just how does the wrath of god be appeased if no penal Substitution?

[Van]

Pst actually is the vehicle by which God is able to both stay Holy, and extend grace towards lost sinners!

Utter nonsense. PST is a tram line in Poland.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for citing more verses that support my view and preclude yours.

Every verse there supports Calvinism, and destroys your theology yin regards to salvation proper!

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense. PST is a tram line in Poland.

Strange that you would see Jesus suffering for our sins as being a sham!

 

[Arthur King]

again, from the perspective of who Jesus was and is in himself, he was sinless and did not deserve death upon that Cross, BUT, he also took upon Himself the sins of the lost that he would redden, so at that moment in time became very sin, and so the Father would view and deal with him while upon the Cross as if was a lost sinner!

I've already responded to everything you are saying here, with scriptural references. To advance the discussion, you need to present new argumentation, or try to show where my arguments are flawed. But jumping up and down and repeating points that I have already responded to is not going to get us anywhere.

 

[Arthur King]

there is a sin debt of obligation owed to God for breaking his law!

Already responded to this. The issue is not whether our sin creates a debt, but what the debt is: a debt of punishment or a debt of obedience. A debt of punishment does not exist, but a debt of obedience is what Jesus pays on our behalf. Romans 5 spells this out.

 

[Yeshua1]

Already responded to this. The issue is not whether our sin creates a debt, but what the debt is: a debt of punishment or a debt of obedience. A debt of punishment does not exist, but a debt of obedience is what Jesus pays on our behalf. Romans 5 spells this out.

God has an active wrath against all things unholy, and he moves to punishing in judgment sinners, remember how many times Israel was on that wrong side?

 

[Yeshua1]

I've already responded to everything you are saying here, with scriptural references. To advance the discussion, you need to present new argumentation, or try to show where my arguments are flawed. But jumping up and down and repeating points that I have already responded to is not going to get us anywhere.

remember those Bowls and cups of wrath of God in the OT and NT, seems to be where God was active in punishing sins under divine judgment!

 

[Arthur King]

remember those Bowls and cups of wrath of god in the OT and NT, seems to be where God was active in punishing sins under divine judgment!

Again, already responded regarding the cups of wrath. No one is arguing against the fact that God punishes sin with wrath. To prove penal substitution, you need to prove two things:

1) That Jesus' death on the cross is just/deserved. I believe it is explicitly stated in the Word that Jesus' death is unjust.
2) Jesus dies as a substitute. That is, the punishment due to humanity falls on Jesus instead of humanity, so that humanity does not suffer it. I believe the Bible is explicit that Jesus suffers along with us, not instead of us. What is unique about Jesus' crucifixion is not that he alone suffers, but that he alone suffers unjustly as an innocent party.

If you cannot prove these two things, then you need to give up penal substitution.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, already responded regarding the cups of wrath. No one is arguing against the fact that God punishes sin with wrath. To prove penal substitution, you need to prove two things:

1) That Jesus' death on the cross is just/deserved. I believe it is explicitly stated in the Word that Jesus' death is unjust.
2) Jesus dies as a substitute. That is, the punishment due to humanity falls on Jesus instead of humanity, so that humanity does not suffer it. I believe the Bible is explicit that Jesus suffers along with us, not instead of us. What is unique about Jesus' crucifixion is not that he alone suffers, but that he alone suffers unjustly as an innocent party.

If you cannot prove these two things, then you need to give up penal substitution.

Isaiah 53 clearly supports the idea of the suffering Servant of Yahweh, as the One who took upon Himself the very sins of the people, and who bore their sins and wrath of God due them!

 

[Arthur King]

Isaiah 53 clearly supports the idea of the suffering Servant of Yahweh, as the One who took upon Himself the very sins of the people, and who bore their sins and wrath of God due them!

Already responded on Isaiah 53, go back and reread what I wrote.

 

[Yeshua1]

Already responded on Isaiah 53, go back and reread what I wrote.

I did, and you have to understand that Jesus when atoning for the sins of humanity, at that moment in time while on that Cross was judged and treated by his father as if he was very sin itself!

 

[Arthur King]

I did, and you have to understand that Jesus when atoning for the sins of humanity, at that moment in time while on that Cross was judged and treated by his father as if he was very sin itself!

I've responded to every argument that you have presented to defend this claim, with scriptural references and exegesis. So you have to go beyond repeating your thesis over and over again, and either present new arguments, or try to show where my arguments are flawed. That's how we have a fruitful discussion. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to continue.

I could present more material defending my position, from the Old Testament sacrificial system etc, but I am hesitant to do so since it seems like you are not really reading and thinking about what I write.

 

[Yeshua1]

I've responded to every argument that you have presented to defend this claim, with scriptural references and exegesis. So you have to go beyond repeating your thesis over and over again, and either present new arguments, or try to show where my arguments are flawed. That's how we have a fruitful discussion. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to continue.

I could present more material defending my position, from the Old Testament sacrificial system etc, but I am hesitant to do so since it seems like you are not really reading and thinking about what I write.

right after Adam sinned and fell, while in the garden, God slew and took the life of animals, which prefigured sacrifices to come, and Abel had a blood offering sacrifice accepted by God. God MUST first have blood shed by messiah to remit sins of His people, before He can affect a change in their lives!

 

[Arthur King]

right after Adam sinned and fell, while in the garden, God slew and took the life of animals, which prefigured sacrifices to come, and Abel had a blood offering sacrifice accepted by God. God MUST first have blood shed by messiah to remit sins of His people, before He can affect a change in their lives!

Nothing you have presented specifically supports penal substitution. No one is arguing against the sacrificial system or the shedding of blood to remit sins.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nothing you have presented specifically supports penal substitution. No one is arguing against the sacrificial system or the shedding of blood to remit sins.

Do you hold to God having active wrath against sin and sinners, that there is coming eternal judgment?

 

[Arthur King]

Do you hold to god having active wrath against sin and sinners, that there is coming eternal judgment?

Yes.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes.

So they are being punished for sinning against God,?
they need someone to take that which is due to them and provide an atonement for them?

 

[Arthur King]

So they are being punished for sinning against God,?
they need someone to take that which is due to them and provide an atonement for them?

The problem is that humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. The solution is that we are raised to new life in Christ. Problem: death. Solution: resurrection in Christ. I've quoted Ephesians 2:1-10 below which clearly lays this out.

What we need is for someone innocent to die on our behalf (not in our place, for we still need to die) so that justice would demand the reversal of death via resurrection. This is what Jesus does for us, so that if we die with him we can also rise with him. Our sin is done away with when we are crucified with him (Romans 6:6).

"And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem is that humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. The solution is that we are raised to new life in Christ. Problem: death. Solution: resurrection in Christ. I've quoted Ephesians 2:1-10 below which clearly lays this out.

What we need is for someone innocent to die on our behalf (not in our place, for we still need to die) so that justice would demand the reversal of death via resurrection. This is what Jesus does for us, so that if we die with him we can also rise with him. Our sin is done away with when we are crucified with him (Romans 6:6).

"And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Again, God requires someone to die in our stead, to take on His wrath and judgement due for sin!

 

[Arthur King]

Again, God requires someone to die in our stead, to take on His wrath and judgement due for sin!

Again, you are just jumping up and down and repeating your thesis with an exclamation point at the end. Jesus does not die instead of us. We still have to die. We are called to die. To take up our cross and follow him. To be crucified with him. To die with him. He who would save his life will lose it. To say that Jesus dies in our place inevitably leads to the prosperity gospel, i.e. "he suffered so I wont have to suffer."

And you still don't seem to understand that prior to being saved, humanity is already under the wrath of God. The wrath of God is not primarily some future, impending judgment to be avoided. It is the current state of those who are not yet saved. Paul says they are children of wrath. Genesis 3 makes it clear that since the fall, humanity is exiled from Paradise and the presence of God as a judgment for sin. You belittle the wrath of God when you relegate it to only some future, impending judgment at the end of time.