just how far is too far?

[timothy 1769]

Clearly fornication is prohibited (At least I HOPE that's clear to everyone). But what level of pre-marital sexual intimacy is biblically permissible? I've heard people espouse everything from complete hands-off to permitting anything short of actual sexual intercourse (i.e. the kind that would naturally lead to pregnancy) as the true biblical view. What do you think?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

If you have a doubt as a Christian it is probably too far.

 

[dianetavegia]

Mt 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

I would take that to mean any activity that caused sexual thoughts or excitement is out of line. Hand holding and a chaste kiss goodnight ... is all I consider 'okay'.

Don't start something you shouldn't finish. If you question whether it's okay or not, the answer is no. Err on the side of caution.

 

[JesusInFirstPlace]

And another thing, it is better to stay further away from "the line" that separates you from sinning, rather than determining how close to the line you can possibly get without sinning. The latter would be the total wrong attitude to have regarding sin!!

 

[timothy 1769]

Diane,

Allow me to play devil's advocate because, thank God, an actual advocate of this position my not even exist on Baptist Board! And I think it's important that people are exposed to these arguments so that they can refute them. I'm actually in the hands-off category myself, but anyway...

Matthew 5:28 specifically speaks of adultery and women - wives in other words. Jesus was certainly capable of speaking in wider terms if that was His meaning.

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

"No greater burden than .. that ye abstain .. from fornication"

This would seem to indicate that anything short of actual fornication is permissible.

(WARNING: readers, trust me this isn't the whole picture! wait and see how the discussion develops.)

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by JesusInFirstPlace:
And another thing, it is better to stay further away from "the line" that separates you from sinning, rather than determining how close to the line you can possibly get without sinning. The latter would be the total wrong attitude to have regarding sin!!

Excellent point. But at times there can be pressures pushing you toward that line, it may be helpful to know where it is, since especially with this topic, one's judgment could be very clouded at the time.

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by C4K:
If you have a doubt as a Christian it is probably too far.

True, but I would add that one should work this out ahead of time, it's way too easy for doubts to temporarily fly out the window in certain situations.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The best position is completely hands off, eyes off, etc. There is no reason to be touching, kissing, or "messing around" with someone. I know there is a lot of pressure out there to give in and try a few things.

I think young people don't realize what they are opening themselves up to and the kind of baggage they will carry with them the rest of their life. It is certainly worth far more discretion than most people give it.

Fornication, BTW, does not just include actual sex. It is any form of sexual immorality.

 

[timothy 1769]

Pastor Larry,

I've heard that too, but most people don't take it that way.

Webster's 1828

Fornication /For`ni·ca´tion/ (?), n. [F. fornication, L. fornicatio.] 1. Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery.

☞ In England, the offense, though cognizable in the ecclesiastical courts, was not at common law subject to secular prosecution. In the United States it is indictable in some States at common law, in others only by statute. Whartyon.

2. (Script.) (a) Adultery. (b) Incest. (c) Idolatry.

What reasons are there to take it in a wider sense? Is there a use in scripture that makes that crystal clear from context?

 

[timothy 1769]

Well Timothy, have you considered this:

ICor 6
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Doesn't seem to leave much room for doubt. Making out isn't "fleeing fornication", it's driving right at it at 100mph. The idea that anything short of "actual sex" is OK is, well, ludicrous.

Neither kissing, nor hugging, nor flirting, nor being off secluded somewhere with the opposite sex qualifies as "fleeing fornication".

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:



Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

"No greater burden than .. that ye abstain .. from fornication"

This would seem to indicate that anything short of actual fornication is permissible.

(WARNING: readers, trust me this isn't the whole picture! wait and see how the discussion develops.)

This is a case of truly taking a verse or phrase totally out of context. This logic would say that a Christian do anything he wants outside of eating meat sacricied to idols or fornication. Lying, stealing, cheating, murder, gosssip, etc would ALL be acceptable according to this logic.

 

[James_Newman]

2 Timothy 2
22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

It is hard for children in this day to stay pure in a society that seems intent on pushing them into adulthood faster and faster. I think it is really important to keep our families separated from the world if we intend them to be able to withstand the temptations set before them. I was not raised in a godly environment, and suffered greatly for it.

To any teens who are presently being tempted, the pleasures of sin are only for a season. In the long run, you will regret it. It's not a question of if, just when. God is not a man that He should lie.

 

[scooter]

Webster's 1828

Fornication /For`ni·ca´tion/ (?), n. [F. fornication, L. fornicatio.] 1. Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery.

☞ In England, the offense, though cognizable in the ecclesiastical courts, was not at common law subject to secular prosecution. In the United States it is indictable in some States at common law, in others only by statute. Whartyon.

2. (Script.) (a) Adultery. (b) Incest. (c) Idolatry.

What reasons are there to take it in a wider sense? Is there a use in scripture that makes that crystal clear from context?

The mistake you make here is using an English dictionary. By doing this, you assume that the word means the same thing today as it did in 65 AD. You have to ask, "how did the original audience understand this teaching?" You would be better served using a greek lexicon and studying the first century culture.

 

[Liz Ward]

Simple question, simple answer; if you haven't got one, leave it well alone. An alternative simple answer: if it can't be done fully clothed don't do it. Simple answer number three: if you wouldn't do it in front of a small child, don't do it until you are married.

More complex answer: avoid any sexual contact at all. Holding hands is not always sexual since parents and children do it and so do christians during certain songs in certain churches.

Kissing (mouth CLOSED) is not always sexual: in many cultures, including the Biblical culture, kissing even on the mouth was done routinely between friends and relatives. Old ladies (at least over here) expect to be kissed on the mouth by young friends and relatives, even today.

Exploring each other's tonsils is foreplay, plain and simple, and so is breast fondling. Deep kissing can be simply replusive if it leads nowhere and breast fondling can even be painful if done by a young overeager man. I speak as one who pulled out of marrying a man who was (and still is) a very close friend, simply because the feeling of pressure caused by this sort of thing (which is nothing by the standards of most!) was intolerable. With the man I eventually married, we did nothing, and I mean, absoltuely nothing, beyond hugging, hand holding and a chaste closed mouth goodnight kiss, until we were married. I cannot tell you how much better that is, from a woman's point of view, than letting the raging hormones dictate what you do.

Liz

 

[gb93433]

Treat the younger women as sisters and the older women as mothers. The younger men as brothers and the older men as fathers.

If we do that there will never be much of a problem.

 

[SaggyWoman]

I think if whatever you are doing makes you want to start something you shouldn't finish til you are married, you shouldn't do it.

 

[Benfranklin403]

>>>>>>The mistake you make here is using an English dictionary. By doing this, you assume that the word means the same thing today as it did in 65 AD. You have to ask, "how did the original audience understand this teaching?" You would be better served using a greek lexicon and studying the first century culture.<<<<<<<<

But it was translated in England in the not too distant past, when the dictionary definition should apply. So unless you want to say that the translators made a mistake, then you must agree that their interpretation of the earlier text conveyed accurately the meaning intended in 65 A.D. Do you claim that the translators were in error? If so, how many other errors did they make?

 

[dianetavegia]

It's my understanding that some youth today believe they are still virgins if what they do could not result in pregnancy. If the clothes are off or the hands are inside the clothes .... it's WRONG!

A good question would be, would you do it in front of your parents, your pastor or Jesus?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Excellent guideline Diane

If you could not do it in front of your parents it is too far.

 

[gb93433]

I have found a good question to ask about anything is not what's wrong with it, but rather what's right about it? When we can answer the question, what's right about it, it solves a lot of problems.