quantumfaith
Active Member
More drivel. But I know you won't be happy until you have the last word. Tell you what, I am leaving for a while. Feel free to continue the conversation....with yourself.
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Just how LIMITED is the ATONEMENT?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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More drivel. But I know you won't be happy until you have the last word. Tell you what, I am leaving for a while. Feel free to continue the conversation....with yourself.
You don't have to know everything about a theology to know it is error. I know very little about Islam, but I know they deny that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again, and that the only way we can be saved is by trusting in him. On this alone I can completely reject Islam as false doctrine.
And you have personally stated in the past that you have not studied Calvinism, it is likely that Quantum has studied more Calvinism than you in a real Bible college. So, your position is very hypocritical to say the least.
I don't know everything about Calvinism, but what little I know is easily recognized as error and unscriptural.
But as I understand it, Skan is Orthodox in his Arminian views which is far closer to DOG beliefs than some of these Pelagians & Semi folks are.....there, there is a wide variety of belief mindsets. the synod of Dort (in the early 17th century) was called to respond to the theological deviations of the Arminians......but we have gone down that road many times on BB haven't we.
I'm afraid that HERALD is coming into these conversations very late in the game. Conversations about Gods Sovereignty, God centered vs man centered, Calvinists being robots....what else, 5 points of Calvinism etc... have been gone over ad nasuem. The result is a divided board at each others throats about who's got the bigger God.
For me, I am resolute in my faith beliefs. These discussions have only furthered my resolve. And since I dont try to convert anyone, its just fun to bait & taunt anyone who does.....I'm content! :godisgood:
There you have it....time & again......Mr. I'm right & your wrong! The Pharisee is in the house....Lord be praised!!!!! :laugh:
For the record, I'm not new to this board. Years ago I was a member under the username "dolous." Unfortunately I forgot my username until Iconoclast reminded me of it.
I realize that the hardcore Arminians and semi-Pelagians on this board are not going to cry out, "Revaco!" I stated in a prior post that my responses are not really for them. Oh, it would be great if they could be persuaded to change their theology; but that aside, my comments are really for the honest inquisitor. Discussion boards usually have more lurkers than participants. They take all this stuff in and process it. If I can have a positive effect on them, then praise God!
quantumfaith
Active Member
EWF, I respect this immensely.
Thats good to know brother. there are too many people out there (and in here) playing God....it isnt their job. Some have even gone crazy with it. Well guess thats their own sin natures....:laugh:
convicted1
Guest
I'm glad you said "many" because "many" doesn't mean "all."Just having a bit of fun, my friend.
Truth be told, all always means all; it's just that all doesn't always apply the same way. All can mean everyone, or all of a group. Context determines this.
Are you sure about what you posted there, Brother???
Romans 5:18-20
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Now in verse 19, it states that by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners. But many here does in fact mean "all"........just playin' with ya....I am quite sure you already knew this......I just wanted to point this out.
convicted1
Guest
I am not DoG, but I say a hearty ((((AMEN)))) to this post!! Here's another dandy to prove we are His.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
convicted1
Guest
You being a DoGer, I know we will have a lot of disagreements, but I have come to a fondness of the way you post on here.
I say the very same thing when God blesses me to proclaim His Gospel.
Robert Snow
New Member
Why study error that is born in the mind of a heretic and propagated by a murderer.
Robert Snow
New Member
[edit = inflammatory language]
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Why must you even go there Robert.....when there are solid Christians affiliated with much of the movement. Are you getting this crud from your Pastor perhaps?
Better you should not react than begin spewing vile commentary. Every time you make comments like that I cringe. Take the higher road & just stop doing it.
Tom Butler
New Member
It seems to me that we have gone several pages without dealing with Skandelon's OP.
I hold the view of Particular Redemption (aka Limited Atonement). Here is one of many scripture passages which I believe supports my view:
Isaiah 53:11 "...He shall see the travail of his soul and BE SATISFIED."
In this Suffering Servant passage, it is obvious that Christ's death satisfied the demands of the broken law, and satisfies God's justice.
If God's justice is satisfied for every person without exception, then God cannot justly damn any of them. Now, some may say that condemnation is for rejection of Christ, or continued unbelief. Then those who have never heard of Christ or his gospel have nothing to suffer for in Hell. Unbelief is a sin, and if Christ died for all without exception, his death atoned for the sin of unbelief as much as the other sins. If that's so, then that leaves any who go to Hell without any sins to suffer for.
Many agree with this, but insist that someway, somehow, every person without exception in all the history of the world has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, Paul himself asked (Romans 10) "how can they hear without a preacher."
Further, Romans 2 says there are those who've never heard the law, and they will be judged only by how well they have kept their own moral code.
Thus, from Isaiah 53:11, one may conclude that God's justice is satisfied only for those whom atonement is directed and to whom it will be applied.
I hold the view of Particular Redemption (aka Limited Atonement). Here is one of many scripture passages which I believe supports my view:
Isaiah 53:11 "...He shall see the travail of his soul and BE SATISFIED."
In this Suffering Servant passage, it is obvious that Christ's death satisfied the demands of the broken law, and satisfies God's justice.
If God's justice is satisfied for every person without exception, then God cannot justly damn any of them. Now, some may say that condemnation is for rejection of Christ, or continued unbelief. Then those who have never heard of Christ or his gospel have nothing to suffer for in Hell. Unbelief is a sin, and if Christ died for all without exception, his death atoned for the sin of unbelief as much as the other sins. If that's so, then that leaves any who go to Hell without any sins to suffer for.
Many agree with this, but insist that someway, somehow, every person without exception in all the history of the world has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet, Paul himself asked (Romans 10) "how can they hear without a preacher."
Further, Romans 2 says there are those who've never heard the law, and they will be judged only by how well they have kept their own moral code.
Thus, from Isaiah 53:11, one may conclude that God's justice is satisfied only for those whom atonement is directed and to whom it will be applied.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Good comment. A wise person will heed such advice.
Oh, like Saul of Tarsus?
Tom, I believe the answer to unlimited atonement is found in Romans 6. You have to think about it like this, what are the wages of sin? Death. Did Jesus die? Yes. So he paid the penalty for sin.
When we trust Christ, we are baptized into his body by the Spirit, we literally become one with him. So when Jesus died and paid the penalty of sin, we died with him. This is what the scriptures actually say.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So, when we trust Christ we are born again, we are baptized into Christ, we are one with him.
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
When Jesus died, if we are in him, we died also. The penalty for our sin has been paid.
Does that mean Jesus's payment is limited? No, anyone can trust Christ if they choose to do so, the payment for their sin has been met by Jesus, Jesus died. No one is prevented from receiving this payment except by their own unwillingness to trust Christ.
If they refuse to receive Jesus, then they must pay the penalty for their sin, death.
When we trust Christ, we are baptized into his body by the Spirit, we literally become one with him. So when Jesus died and paid the penalty of sin, we died with him. This is what the scriptures actually say.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So, when we trust Christ we are born again, we are baptized into Christ, we are one with him.
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
When Jesus died, if we are in him, we died also. The penalty for our sin has been paid.
Does that mean Jesus's payment is limited? No, anyone can trust Christ if they choose to do so, the payment for their sin has been met by Jesus, Jesus died. No one is prevented from receiving this payment except by their own unwillingness to trust Christ.
If they refuse to receive Jesus, then they must pay the penalty for their sin, death.
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Oh ok then....from your perspective Christ's work on the cross makes possible for everyone but not actual for anyone in particular.....so although the crucifixion enabled God to grant forgiveness, this is only given on the condition of personal faith.
In summary then, Christ died for each & every person; however only those who believe will be saved. Thus the atonement only becomes effective if and when someone chooses to accept it.
In summary then, Christ died for each & every person; however only those who believe will be saved. Thus the atonement only becomes effective if and when someone chooses to accept it.
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