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Just how LIMITED is the ATONEMENT?

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http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html


John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

What is the "world" here? Exegete B. F. Westcott says: "The fundamental idea of kosmos [world] in St. John is that of the sum of created being which belongs to the sphere of human life as an ordered whole, considered apart from God....the world comes to represent humanity in its fallen state, alienated from its Maker."

John Calvin says of this verse: "He uses the word sin in the singular number for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race."

Ryle similarly states: "Christ is...a Savior for all mankind....He did not suffer for a few persons only, but for all mankind....What Christ took away, and bore on the cross, was not the sin of certain people only, but the whole accumulated mass of all the sins of all the children of Adam....I hold as strongly as anyone that Christ's death is profitable to none but the elect who believe in His Name. But I dare not limit and pare down such expressions as the one before us....I dare not confine the intention of redemption to the saints alone. Christ is for every man....The atonement was made for all the world, though it is applied and enjoyed by none but believers."


Eventhough these hold that only the elect will be saved, they all seem to believe that the atonement was indeed for the whole world.....unless these quotes were excerpts taken out of context.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The Greek lexicons are unanimous that "world" here denotes humankind, not the "world of the elect."
John 3:16 cannot be divorced from verses 14-15, wherein Christ alludes to Numbers 21 with its discussion of Moses setting up the brazen serpent in the camp of Israel, so that if "any man" looked to it, he experienced physical deliverance. In verse 15 Christ applies the story spiritually when He says that "whosoever" believes on the uplifted Son of Man shall experience spiritual deliverance.

John Calvin says: "He has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term world which He formerly used [God so loved the world]; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet He shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when He invites all men without exception[/U] [not merely 'without distinction'] to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life."


Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine's writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: "The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?"
He also stated, "The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins."


It has been stated many times, that Calvin gleaned a lot from Augustine. It looks like he also was in favor of unlimited atonement.

Martin Luther (1483-1546): "Christ is not cruel exactor, but a forgiver of the sins of the whole world....He hath given Himself for our sins, and with one oblation hath put away the sins of the whole world....Christ hath taken away the sins, not of certain men only, but also of thee, yea, of the whole world...Not only my sins and thine, but also the sins of the whole world...take hold upon Christ."


Like I stated, these quotes may, or may not be correct, or taken out of context. But if these ring true, then the DoG forefathers had differing views on UA/LA.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: mia gar prosphora teteleioken (3SRAI) eis to dienekes tous agiazomenous. (PPPMPA)

Amplified: For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: For by one offering and for all time he perfectly gave us that cleansing we need to enter into the presence of God. (Westminster Press)

NLT: For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: For by virtue of that one offering he has perfected for all time every one whom he makes holy. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: for by one offering He has brought to completion forever those who are set apart for God and His service. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: for by one offering he hath perfected to the end those sanctified;

thank you for this post:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

QF;
have NEVER been a calvinist, and unless I have some type of "Damascus Road" experience, I never will be

QF....study the priestly work of Jesus...read Hugh Martin on the atonement....and see where you come out.
 
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David Lamb

Well-Known Member
Ya gotta love it, you have folks that call laymen like me morons, and that we should consult real "theologians" that know Greek, and when we do, if that theologian disagrees with you, you say he is wrong. LOL
But where did Steve ("Martin Marprelate") call you a moron, or tell you to consult real "theologians"?

I also provided an article written by a Calvinist that has literally dozens of quotes by Calvinists of the past that support Unlimited Atonement.
Google "The Case for Unlimited Atonement (by Ron Rhodes)" without the quotes to see that article.

It just goes to show that many are not open to scriptural interpretation that disagrees with their presuppositions. The fact is, there are MANY Calvinists of the past who did not agree with Limited Atonement. In fact, according to this article, the vast majority of theologians before the Reformation, and nearly all the early church fathers believed in Unlimited Atonement. Read that article and see for yourself.
Are you saying that Albert Barnes was a Calvinist?
 

Herald

New Member
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html





Eventhough these hold that only the elect will be saved, they all seem to believe that the atonement was indeed for the whole world.....unless these quotes were excerpts taken out of context.







It has been stated many times, that Calvin gleaned a lot from Augustine. It looks like he also was in favor of unlimited atonement.




Like I stated, these quotes may, or may not be correct, or taken out of context. But if these ring true, then the DoG forefathers had differing views on UA/LA.

Friend,

Here's the problem with quotes; I can take a quote from Wesley and make him look like a frothing-at-the-mouth hyper-Calvinist. I can also make Calvin appear like a semi-Pelagian with a snip, cut, and paste. I'm not saying you are doing that. Far from it.

It is not contra-DoG for me to say that Christ is the Savior of the world. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. He died for the sins of the world. Of course, your next question to me should be, "What do you mean by "the world""? I would explain that it is through Jesus Christ that forgiveness is found and that God has provided no other remedy for sin. Bishop Ryle, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur et al. were/are advocates of the DoG who would say that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. However, they would explain it the way I have described it.

How about those "Calvinists" who truly believe in universal atonement? Well, as I've posted before, they're not true Calvinists; they're Amyraldians. That doesn't make them pariahs or bad Christians, it just means they are not Calvinists in the historical sense of the word. No one has a copyright on the term "Calvinist"; but when you look at the notable Calvinists in history (some mentioned earlier in this post) you will notice a common set of shared beliefs.

A brief comment on Martin Luther. Luther is often called the father of the Reformation. IMHO that's really not true. Luther never wanted to leave the Roman Catholic church. He maintained much of his Romanism after he was excommunicated. He was theologically sound on sola fide (faith alone) but had theological deficiencies in other areas. Arguably it was the spread of Protestant Christianity in Scotland that fanned the flames of the Reformation. It is this writer's belief that John Knox was more a father of the Reformation than Martin Luther.
 

Tom Butler

New Member
DoGs get laughed at when they assert that "world" doesn't always mean everybody in the world.

Here are some Biblical examples where it doesn't:

John 7:7 In distinction between believers and unbelievers.
Romans 11:12 Gentiles as distinguished from Jews
John 12:19 "The whole world has gone after them." The generality of known people

DoGs also get smirked at when they contend that "all" doesn't always mean all without exception.

Some scriptural examples:
Matthew 3:5 "....Then went out to him Jerusalem and Judea and ALL the region around Jordan." A great number
Luke 2:10 :...good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people." All kinds
Mark 11:30 All with some specific exceptions
Luke 3:21 Every one of a certain class

Thanks to Thomas Paul Simmons A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine
 
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psalms109:31

Active Member
"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
C.H.Spurgeon

Spurgeon a Calvinist was a biblicists first. The problem people have is not when you limit the word all and world when it should it is when you do and you shouldn't. As in the quote above from Spurgeon.

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].
Spurgeon

Spurgeon did say Calvinism is the Gospel he did not mean that with those who would change text in scripture to fit doctrine. I am not say'n any one has I wish that you would look upon your self and have His Spirit speak to your spirit to appeal to you. I am not a judge, but have a desire that no one turn away from God and that they do come to the truth and will not let my human reasoning change one text of scripture. To be wise in our eyes to reject His word God has given to us. Spurgeon was a book educated man.
 
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Friend,

Here's the problem with quotes; I can take a quote from Wesley and make him look like a frothing-at-the-mouth hyper-Calvinist. I can also make Calvin appear like a semi-Pelagian with a snip, cut, and paste. I'm not saying you are doing that. Far from it.

It is not contra-DoG for me to say that Christ is the Savior of the world. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. He died for the sins of the world. Of course, your next question to me should be, "What do you mean by "the world""? I would explain that it is through Jesus Christ that forgiveness is found and that God has provided no other remedy for sin. Bishop Ryle, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur et al. were/are advocates of the DoG who would say that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. However, they would explain it the way I have described it.

How about those "Calvinists" who truly believe in universal atonement? Well, as I've posted before, they're not true Calvinists; they're Amyraldians. That doesn't make them pariahs or bad Christians, it just means they are not Calvinists in the historical sense of the word. No one has a copyright on the term "Calvinist"; but when you look at the notable Calvinists in history (some mentioned earlier in this post) you will notice a common set of shared beliefs.

A brief comment on Martin Luther. Luther is often called the father of the Reformation. IMHO that's really not true. Luther never wanted to leave the Roman Catholic church. He maintained much of his Romanism after he was excommunicated. He was theologically sound on sola fide (faith alone) but had theological deficiencies in other areas. Arguably it was the spread of Protestant Christianity in Scotland that fanned the flames of the Reformation. It is this writer's belief that John Knox was more a father of the Reformation than Martin Luther.


Well, Brother Herald, "kosmos" was the greek word used for world in John 1:29, as well as John 3:16. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't mean "some", "part", "few", "elect" of the world, but world in its entirety.
 

glfredrick

New Member
"As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." - John Calvin

"What was demanded for the salvation of one was demanded for the salvation of all. Every man is required to satisfy the demands of the law. No man is required to do either more or less. If those demands are satisfied by a representative or substitute, his work is equally available for all...He did all that was necessary, so far as a satisfaction to justice is concerned, all that is required for the salvation of all men." -C. Hodge

[Christ's atonement has indeed] "removed the legal impediments out of the way of all men." - A. Hodge

"God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few." - John Calvin

Do you agree that all legal impediments have been satisfied by Christ's atoning work for every individual, as these Calvinists apparently do?

Or are you one of those who believe that the atoning work only satisfies the legal requirements for the elect? If so, how do you defend the nature of the universal Gospel appeal to all mankind?

So, I take it that you are reading true Calvinists and getting confused because they don't match up to your stereotype of the doctrine... :wavey:
 

glfredrick

New Member
Some Hodge... (From "Predestination")

The expiatory work of Christ which is sufficient for, adapted to, and freely offered to all men, being presupposed, the question of questions is, How — by what agencies and on what conditions — is it effectually applied to any individual? The Scriptures make it plain that the condition of its effectual application is an act of faith, involving real spiritual repentance and the turning from sin and the acceptance and self-appropriation of Christ and of his redemption as the only remedy. But what will prompt a sinner in love with his sin, spiritually blind and callous, thus to repent and accept Christ as the cure of the sin he loves? The first movement cannot begin with man. The sinner of himself cannot really desire deliverance from sin; of himself he cannot appreciate the attractive beauty, loveliness, or saving power of Christ. The dead man cannot spontaneously originate his own quickening, nor the creature his own creating, nor the infant his own begetting. Whatever man may do after regeneration, the first quickening of the dead must originate in the first instance with God. All Christians feel this as the most intimate conviction of their souls. Yet it involves necessarily this very doctrine of eternal predestination or election. If God begins the work, if our believing follows his quickening, then it is God, not man, who makes the difference between the quickened and the unquickened. If we believe, it is because we have been first quickened. If any man does not believe, it is because he is yet dead in his natural sin. God’s eternal choice therefore cannot depend upon foreseen faith, but, on the contrary, faith must depend upon God’s eternal choice.

As between the man who believes in Christ and the man who finally rejects him, the source of the difference is put by the Pelagian entirely in the inalienable, unassisted power of the human will. All that can be said in the case is that the one man has accepted Christ because he chose to do so, and the other man has rejected Christ because he chose to do so. Each has acted as he has done in the unfettered and unfetterable exercise of the human will. But Pelagianism makes no room for original sin nor for the necessity of divine grace. It is diametrically opposed to the Scriptures, to the religious experience of all Christians, and it has been rejected as anti-Christian by the unanimous consent of the whole historic Church.

The semi-Pelagian, admitting that man is morally sick, holds that every sinner must make the first movement Godward spontaneously in his own strength, after which, if his effort is sincere, however ineffectual, God will co-operate by his grace with him and make his effort successful.

The Arminian, on the other hand, admitting that all men, being dead in trespasses and sins, are absolutely incapable of spontaneously originating any good desire or effort, yet holds that God gives the same sufficient grace to all men; and he makes the difference between the believer and the unbeliever to lie in the fact that the former co-operates, and thus renders the grace in his case effectual, and the other fails to co-operate with it, and thus renders it ineffectual.

The Lutheran, who maintains that men are in such sense dead in sin that they are utterly unable to co-operate with grace before they have been themselves quickened to life by grace, yet makes the difference between the believer and the unbeliever to consist in the fact, that while no man can co-operate with grace previous to regeneration, every man is free to resist it. With the Lutheran, therefore, the believer is the non-resistant, the unbeliever is the resistant, subject of a common universal grace.

The Calvinist, on the other hand, glorifies the free and sovereign grace of God by attributing to it alone all the efficiency in saving the believing sinner. It is God’s grace which makes the believer all he is. He feels this; of this at least he is absolutely sure. He is nothing more than a poor wandering sheep. The Good Shepherd has sought him out, found him, and carried him back on his breast. In himself and of himself in his entire history he is no better than his fellowmen who are lost. It is only God’s free grace, therefore, which has made the difference. The faith he has cannot have been the precondition of God’s choice, but God’s choice must have been the precedent cause of his faith.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
So, I take it that you are reading true Calvinists and getting confused because they don't match up to your stereotype of the doctrine... :wavey:

Thanks for the insightful input into the age long discussion regarding the atonement in which even those scholars within the Reformed tradition have debated vehemently for generations. You have been very helpful. :applause:
 
If I am blessed to make it to CHRISTmas this year, I will read firsthanded what Calvin believes in regards to this. I asked my M-I-L to buy the "Institutes" for me. If I reject Calvinism(and I do), I need a clearer understanding of what He believed.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Thanks for the insightful input into the age long discussion regarding the atonement in which even those scholars within the Reformed tradition have debated vehemently for generations. You have been very helpful. :applause:

It looks to me he was quite helpful indeed, summing you up perfectly.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Friend,

Here's the problem with quotes; I can take a quote from Wesley and make him look like a frothing-at-the-mouth hyper-Calvinist. I can also make Calvin appear like a semi-Pelagian with a snip, cut, and paste. I'm not saying you are doing that. Far from it.

It is not contra-DoG for me to say that Christ is the Savior of the world. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. He died for the sins of the world. Of course, your next question to me should be, "What do you mean by "the world""? I would explain that it is through Jesus Christ that forgiveness is found and that God has provided no other remedy for sin. Bishop Ryle, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur et al. were/are advocates of the DoG who would say that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. However, they would explain it the way I have described it.

How about those "Calvinists" who truly believe in universal atonement? Well, as I've posted before, they're not true Calvinists; they're Amyraldians. That doesn't make them pariahs or bad Christians, it just means they are not Calvinists in the historical sense of the word. No one has a copyright on the term "Calvinist"; but when you look at the notable Calvinists in history (some mentioned earlier in this post) you will notice a common set of shared beliefs.

Herald,

First, allow me to say thank you for the manner of your posts. You are cordial and on topic, a refreshing combination. :)

The distinction I'm attempting to draw is not between Amyraldians and Calvinists because that presumes Calvin wasn't an Amyraldian in some respects.

It think the confusion in the discussion comes when some attempt to equate the atonement with salvation itself. But for one to be saved they must have atonement and faith. So it would look like this in an equation:

Atonement + Faith = Salvation

SOME Calvinists argue that the non-elect perish for a lack of atonement and faith, because Christ didn't die for them and they weren't effectually called to faith. Their equation would look like this for the non-elect:

NO Atonement (Christ didn't die for them) + NO Faith (God didn't effectually call them) = NO Salvation

However, other Calvinists (including Calvin himself) believed that all the legal impediments were removed by Christ so the non-elect perish ONLY for lack of faith.

As Calvin put it, "As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." So his equation for the non-elect is:

Atonement (satisfied divine justice for all) + NO Faith (God didn't effectually call them) = No Salvation

You see, the first view is a bit of an 'overkill' if you will. It argues that men perish for lack of atonement and a lack of faith, while Calvin ONLY argued that men perish for lack of faith. See the difference?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
As Calvin put it, "As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

Calvins context and audience in this quote are the elect.

See the difference?
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
If I am blessed to make it to CHRISTmas this year, I will read firsthanded what Calvin believes in regards to this. I asked my M-I-L to buy the "Institutes" for me. If I reject Calvinism(and I do), I need a clearer understanding of what He believed.

The Institutes are absolutely free within e-sword.
 

Amy.G

New Member
I must either be simple minded or stupid, but I don't understand the confusion over the atonement of Christ. If we go back to the OT sacrifice that was done once a year for the whole nation of Israel, we can easily understand it.

The OT sacrifice was but a shadow of the one true sacrifice of Christ, but the principal is the same.

Once a year the priest took the blood into the the Holy of Holies to sprinkle on the mercy seat. This was done on behalf of the whole nation of Israel. And yet, not every individual in the nation was saved by it. Why? Because there were some who did not believe. So even though the sacrifice was made on their behalf, their unbelief condemned them.

It is no different under the New Covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice for ALL, but not ALL will be saved because some will not believe. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

What is so confusing about that?????
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Calvins context and audience in this quote are the elect.

See the difference?
You are honestly arguing that Calvin meant, ""As no [elect] man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all [elect] men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us [the elect] back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." ???

Really?

Do you want me to quote the context of this quote and all the other many quotes of Calvin which he clearly indicates the universality of not only the calling but the satisfaction of Christ's atonement?

May I suggest you find just one scholar who has interpreted Calvin's teaching here to be in reference to the elect rather than every person?

Thanks.
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I must either be simple minded or stupid, but I don't understand the confusion over the atonement of Christ. If we go back to the OT sacrifice that was done once a year for the whole nation of Israel, we can easily understand it.

The OT sacrifice was but a shadow of the one true sacrifice of Christ, but the principal is the same.

Once a year the priest took the blood into the the Holy of Holies to sprinkle on the mercy seat. This was done on behalf of the whole nation of Israel. And yet, not every individual in the nation was saved by it. Why? Because there were some who did not believe. So even though the sacrifice was made on their behalf, their unbelief condemned them.

It is no different under the New Covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice for ALL, but not ALL will be saved because some will not believe. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

What is so confusing about that?????
:thumbs: Well stated. It only becomes confusing when people attempt to conform the scriptures to fit their pet dogma.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
You are honestly arguing that Calvin meant, ""As no [elect] man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all [elect] men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us [the elect] back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."



Do you want me to quote the context of this quote and all the other many quotes of Calvin which he clearly indicates the universality of not only the calling but the satisfaction of Christ's atonement?

May I suggest you find just one scholar who has interpreted Calvin's teaching here to be in reference to the elect rather than every person? That will be interesting to read.

Yes, we all need you to quote it all for us as we depend upon you for all of our sources. I've already read the context, and also ... [snipped personal attack]

The rest of Calvins theology gives context to what he means elsewhere, sort of like the same way context and comprehensive applications of Scriptures shine light upon meanings in other passages. You are aware of this aren't you?

[Snipped - personal attack]
 
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