Just what must I do to be saved?

[Yelsew2]

Herc posted on another topic some thoughts about salvation. Sounding a little accusatory. So I thought since Herc wants to discuss that topic, perhaps entering into it with his post with my responses.

Yelsew do you understand Job 23:13,13 because i don't think you do.You put your will ahead of Gods will in all your writings.

You are jumping to conclusions friend. It is good that Job had this impression of God, but under Grace, because of the Christ's atonement for Sins, God has granted to man life through faith, man's faith in God. You'll notice that Job is describing what he has done, how he has lived his life and yet he is guilty in that he sees God as carrying out a sentence upon him.

Job did not know that the yet to come Messiah was going to atone for his sins, and that by having faith in God as he did He has life eternal. If he did know it his statement would certainly have been different.

I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.

How is it that one who is born in "total depravity" can be "in the will of God from before the foundation of the world"?

Kinda like putting the cart ahead of the horse doctrine don't you think.

If that's your answer, I agree. Calvinism clearly states that man is born totally depraved, and you say that man must be in the will of God from before the foundation of the world in order to go to heaven. Real screwed up doctrine you have!

Give God the Glory for his will, for salvation is not of yourself. meaning nothing you got to offer ole boy could merit you one thing in the eyes of a all knowing all wise God.

Have you ever seen me post that man can save himself by any means whatever?

He knoweth them that are his. He don't think he knows. Do you understand me.

I have never doubted, let alone posted anything contrary to God's Omniscience.

He's not waiting for us to accept him, we dead sinners couldn't do one thing on our own part to save ourselves, God knows that. That's why salvation is of the lord and not of ourselves.

Well I guess then you can scratch out of your bible, "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the Gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". That Scripture declares that Man does have a part in his salvation! Do you suppose Paul was just foolin' around?

Man has to have faith in God for God to save him. NO, God does not give man the faith, because God has no faith to give to man.

He he changes you from a sinfull life to a life of joy and peace then edify him for he done he's the one that pardoned and passed by,other wise you would be left in you sins.

You must have been havin' a "joy rush" when you wrote this last thought, cause it don't make sense!

 

[humbleherc]

Now how do you know what Job knew.You put words in the prophets mouth.You can't save yourself nor can i.You want be born again of yourself so whats the point with arguing.The spirit is like the wind it blows on whom ever God intends for it to.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Herc posted on another topic some thoughts about salvation. Sounding a little accusatory. So I thought since Herc wants to discuss that topic, perhaps entering into it with his post with my responses.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew do you understand Job 23:13,13 because i don't think you do.You put your will ahead of Gods will in all your writings.

You are jumping to conclusions friend. It is good that Job had this impression of God, but under Grace, because of the Christ's atonement for Sins, God has granted to man life through faith, man's faith in God. You'll notice that Job is describing what he has done, how he has lived his life and yet he is guilty in that he sees God as carrying out a sentence upon him.

Job did not know that the yet to come Messiah was going to atone for his sins, and that by having faith in God as he did He has life eternal. If he did know it his statement would certainly have been different.

I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.

How is it that one who is born in "total depravity" can be "in the will of God from before the foundation of the world"?

Kinda like putting the cart ahead of the horse doctrine don't you think.

If that's your answer, I agree. Calvinism clearly states that man is born totally depraved, and you say that man must be in the will of God from before the foundation of the world in order to go to heaven. Real screwed up doctrine you have!

Give God the Glory for his will, for salvation is not of yourself. meaning nothing you got to offer ole boy could merit you one thing in the eyes of a all knowing all wise God.

Have you ever seen me post that man can save himself by any means whatever?

He knoweth them that are his. He don't think he knows. Do you understand me.

I have never doubted, let alone posted anything contrary to God's Omniscience.

He's not waiting for us to accept him, we dead sinners couldn't do one thing on our own part to save ourselves, God knows that. That's why salvation is of the lord and not of ourselves.

Well I guess then you can scratch out of your bible, "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the Gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". That Scripture declares that Man does have a part in his salvation! Do you suppose Paul was just foolin' around?

Man has to have faith in God for God to save him. NO, God does not give man the faith, because God has no faith to give to man.

He he changes you from a sinfull life to a life of joy and peace then edify him for he done he's the one that pardoned and passed by,other wise you would be left in you sins.

You must have been havin' a "joy rush" when you wrote this last thought, cause it don't make sense! </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[humbleherc]

Did i read what i think i did .God has no faith to give man.How absurd.When a man is born of the spirit thats when he is born of faith Duh..You sit around like a mocking bird and wait for some Armanian to drop something in your mouth.

Originally posted by herc:
Now how do you know what Job knew.You put words in the prophets mouth.You can't save yourself nor can i.You want be born again of yourself so whats the point with arguing.The spirit is like the wind it blows on whom ever God intends for it to.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Herc posted on another topic some thoughts about salvation. Sounding a little accusatory. So I thought since Herc wants to discuss that topic, perhaps entering into it with his post with my responses.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew do you understand Job 23:13,13 because i don't think you do.You put your will ahead of Gods will in all your writings.

You are jumping to conclusions friend. It is good that Job had this impression of God, but under Grace, because of the Christ's atonement for Sins, God has granted to man life through faith, man's faith in God. You'll notice that Job is describing what he has done, how he has lived his life and yet he is guilty in that he sees God as carrying out a sentence upon him.

Job did not know that the yet to come Messiah was going to atone for his sins, and that by having faith in God as he did He has life eternal. If he did know it his statement would certainly have been different.

I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.

How is it that one who is born in "total depravity" can be "in the will of God from before the foundation of the world"?

Kinda like putting the cart ahead of the horse doctrine don't you think.

If that's your answer, I agree. Calvinism clearly states that man is born totally depraved, and you say that man must be in the will of God from before the foundation of the world in order to go to heaven. Real screwed up doctrine you have!

Give God the Glory for his will, for salvation is not of yourself. meaning nothing you got to offer ole boy could merit you one thing in the eyes of a all knowing all wise God.

Have you ever seen me post that man can save himself by any means whatever?

He knoweth them that are his. He don't think he knows. Do you understand me.

I have never doubted, let alone posted anything contrary to God's Omniscience.

He's not waiting for us to accept him, we dead sinners couldn't do one thing on our own part to save ourselves, God knows that. That's why salvation is of the lord and not of ourselves.

Well I guess then you can scratch out of your bible, "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the Gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". That Scripture declares that Man does have a part in his salvation! Do you suppose Paul was just foolin' around?

Man has to have faith in God for God to save him. NO, God does not give man the faith, because God has no faith to give to man.

He he changes you from a sinfull life to a life of joy and peace then edify him for he done he's the one that pardoned and passed by,other wise you would be left in you sins.

You must have been havin' a "joy rush" when you wrote this last thought, cause it don't make sense! </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[humbleherc]

Believe this Yelsew ,you could memorize the whole intire bible and it wouldn't do you one bit of Good.Some people know the Bible like the back of their hand ,but in a carnal way.The lord hid things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto babes.So then you could go to all the Theology schools you want in this world and it never do you one bit of Good.Some even incompass land and sea to be made proselyt and we know what he is when he is made.A two more fold child of the devil.Their are children of grace all around this world,but they don't hear them.They don't care to hear who old baals prophets.John 10:8

Originally posted by herc:
Did i read what i think i did .God has no faith to give man.How absurd.When a man is born of the spirit thats when he is born of faith Duh..You sit around like a mocking bird and wait for some Armanian to drop something in your mouth.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by herc:
Now how do you know what Job knew.You put words in the prophets mouth.You can't save yourself nor can i.You want be born again of yourself so whats the point with arguing.The spirit is like the wind it blows on whom ever God intends for it to.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Herc posted on another topic some thoughts about salvation. Sounding a little accusatory. So I thought since Herc wants to discuss that topic, perhaps entering into it with his post with my responses.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew do you understand Job 23:13,13 because i don't think you do.You put your will ahead of Gods will in all your writings.

You are jumping to conclusions friend. It is good that Job had this impression of God, but under Grace, because of the Christ's atonement for Sins, God has granted to man life through faith, man's faith in God. You'll notice that Job is describing what he has done, how he has lived his life and yet he is guilty in that he sees God as carrying out a sentence upon him.

Job did not know that the yet to come Messiah was going to atone for his sins, and that by having faith in God as he did He has life eternal. If he did know it his statement would certainly have been different.

I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.

How is it that one who is born in "total depravity" can be "in the will of God from before the foundation of the world"?

Kinda like putting the cart ahead of the horse doctrine don't you think.

If that's your answer, I agree. Calvinism clearly states that man is born totally depraved, and you say that man must be in the will of God from before the foundation of the world in order to go to heaven. Real screwed up doctrine you have!

Give God the Glory for his will, for salvation is not of yourself. meaning nothing you got to offer ole boy could merit you one thing in the eyes of a all knowing all wise God.

Have you ever seen me post that man can save himself by any means whatever?

He knoweth them that are his. He don't think he knows. Do you understand me.

I have never doubted, let alone posted anything contrary to God's Omniscience.

He's not waiting for us to accept him, we dead sinners couldn't do one thing on our own part to save ourselves, God knows that. That's why salvation is of the lord and not of ourselves.

Well I guess then you can scratch out of your bible, "for by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the Gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast". That Scripture declares that Man does have a part in his salvation! Do you suppose Paul was just foolin' around?

Man has to have faith in God for God to save him. NO, God does not give man the faith, because God has no faith to give to man.

He he changes you from a sinfull life to a life of joy and peace then edify him for he done he's the one that pardoned and passed by,other wise you would be left in you sins.

You must have been havin' a "joy rush" when you wrote this last thought, cause it don't make sense! </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Yelsew2]

Herc,
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I am un-hyphenated Christian, meaning I hold no allegience to any man made doctrine or belief system.

If you can prove to me that God has faith to give to man you may do a great work. However, You must know the true essence of FAITH in order to do that, so let's start Hebrews 11:1

1. Only faith can guarantee the blessings that we hope for, or prove the existence of realities that are unseen.
2. It is for their faith that our ancestors are acknowledged.
3. It is by faith that we understand that the ages were created by a word from God, so that from the invisible the visible world came to be.

If you believe that God the father is Omniscient, and that HE is All seeing, and that there is no other God, then you are compelled to agree that there is nothing for which God has hope, and there is nothing that God cannot see or know. And Since there is no other God whom would God the Father have faith in? If God has not need of faith, for what possible reason would he have any of it to give to man?

God demands only one thing of man and that is, that man have faith in HIM.

If you can prove that wrong please be my guest!

 

[Me2]

We seem to be forgetting a few choices within Christianity.

we have arminianism.
we have calvinism.
we have universalism.

I can promise you one thing if you are not in his will from before the foundations of the world then you are none of his.

every creature before the foundation of the world is in Gods plan. If you were born on Earth. your in his plan. you were in his image called "in christ". In Gods absolute time before the foundation of the world. we are complete and worshipping our Lord.
When Gods plans began to unfold on earth. Adam fell and all man "in Christ" in his own time is emptied from this image into death. and ffrom death we work our way back into the image called "in christ"

Remember what you were complete in the beginning. that is your complete image you are becoming. each man woman and child is deconstructed from the beginning only to discover the details of what transpired in finite time to become complete what we were in absolute time "in Christ"

all men are in Gods will. Jesus was the head of the firstborn. his bride is his body. (also the firstborn.) they in turn are sacrificing themselves for the lives of all the rest of Gods creation. the chosen vessels of Wrath. concluding that all men are returned back into the image called "in christ" and completed. they have begun a journey only to find that they were complete from the beginning of Gods will. before the foundation of the world.

not like calvinism..were only some are saved. not like arminianism..were only some are saved. But universalism.. were all are saved. all return back to discover they were safe and complete from the beginning of Gods plans.

Me2

 

[humbleherc]

This don't take a rocket scientest to understand here duh.Paul was a wicked man,a carnal minded man before he was born of the spirit.His scales came off his eyes.His flesh serpent scale eyes came off.Paul became born of the spirit.James 2:26 Body with out the spirit is dead.So how can a man with out the spirit of God excercise any faith yelsew.Being Born of The spirit is not of our selves.Faith is hope.Christ in you the hope of of Glory.Mystery among the gentile.Now if you get above this Hope you are already turned aside toward Satan.Or didn't really have any to begin with.Yelsew do you hope in The lord or do you know you are saved which is it?One or the other will let out a boastfull noise.One will be humble as a sinner should be.And we are all sinners i don't care what church you are a member of.Know this when the Lord kicks Satan out of your heart and soul,Satan can't ever go back in there,but he will take up an abode in your flesh.Am i over your head on these matters.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Herc,
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I am un-hyphenated Christian, meaning I hold no allegience to any man made doctrine or belief system.

If you can prove to me that God has faith to give to man you may do a great work. However, You must know the true essence of FAITH in order to do that, so let's start Hebrews 11:1 </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 1. Only faith can guarantee the blessings that we hope for, or prove the existence of realities that are unseen.
2. It is for their faith that our ancestors are acknowledged.
3. It is by faith that we understand that the ages were created by a word from God, so that from the invisible the visible world came to be.

If you believe that God the father is Omniscient, and that HE is All seeing, and that there is no other God, then you are compelled to agree that there is nothing for which God has hope, and there is nothing that God cannot see or know. And Since there is no other God whom would God the Father have faith in? If God has not need of faith, for what possible reason would he have any of it to give to man?

God demands only one thing of man and that is, that man have faith in HIM.

If you can prove that wrong please be my guest! </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Yelsew2]

Herc,
When one cleans his "spiritual house", unless it be filled with Holy Spirit, the spirit of evil will return and bring with him many more evil spirits! That's bible baby!

My hope is in the promise of Eternal life made to me in John 3:16. Therefore the object of MY faith is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Christ!My life is lived in that hope, and my works are based upon that promise. Therefore, so long has I have faith in Jesus, the Christ, I have everlasting life. But should I lose that faith, I will not see life, but will taste the second death. So I live my life daily in fear of the possibility of losing my faith and therefore losing life eternal. That is why I remain steadfast in bible study, and doing the works that my faith allow, ney demand.

 

[humbleherc]

You cleaned your own house uh,well come clean mine.I wished i had that power.You can't lose eternal life,if you already posses it.How can a man be half saved.I believe when the you get your second birth you got it.Your going home.Yeah,you will sin,but thats the flesh it won't never be or do no good.It can't it's corruption.Now some will be delivered over to satan,but the soul would go free in the End.If you are sealed then you are sealed forever.Nothing could separate you from the love of God,that is if your saved.But the Lord knoweth them that are his thats why Paul said nevertheless the foundations of God standeth sure.Paul wasn't worried he Knew Gods purpose was to save his child for all eternity.And Jesus has alredy done that.Now as for if you are saved for this life That takes the Holy Spirit to reprove you,convict you ,chastize you so you might live a life of joy and peace now.Their is nothing we can do to earn eternal life.It is the gift of God,but to enter into life now in this life, Yes their are many works and labours of love.We do nothing to get to the Eternal heaven thats has already been done.Thats why never boast,because you don't deserve it and truly theirs nothing you could give in exchange for your soul,not nothing.Jesus paid that sin debt at calvery for his children and it is finished for evermore.We only have sin to offer the Lord.It will take him right on down and the three fold cord to perserve our soul for all eternity. The Father,The Son and The Holy Sprit.

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
Herc,
When one cleans his "spiritual house", unless it be filled with Holy Spirit, the spirit of evil will return and bring with him many more evil spirits! That's bible baby!

My hope is in the promise of Eternal life made to me in John 3:16. Therefore the object of MY faith is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Christ!My life is lived in that hope, and my works are based upon that promise. Therefore, so long has I have faith in Jesus, the Christ, I have everlasting life. But should I lose that faith, I will not see life, but will taste the second death. So I live my life daily in fear of the possibility of losing my faith and therefore losing life eternal. That is why I remain steadfast in bible study, and doing the works that my faith allow, ney demand.

 

[Frogman]

Hello herc,
Welcome to the BaptistBoard and to the C/A Forum.

May God Bless you.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[cdg]

Hello all. Faith does come from God-

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God."

Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me ,and gave Himself for me."

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
(All emphasis is mine, and all Scripture is from KJV)

[ February 14, 2004, 02:38 AM: Message edited by: cdg ]

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by cdg:
Hello all. Faith does come from God-

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God."

Galatians 2:20 - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me ,and gave Himself for me."

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
(All emphasis is mine, and all Scripture is from KJV)

There is no evidence in the scriptures you posted that FAITH in man comes from GOD. Paul is telling the Galations that Jesus as a man, had faith, and with that I agree, Jesus had faith while living in human form. However as God, Jesus does not have faith to give to men. Jesus is sitting on his throne in Heaven and has every attribute of the Father, thus he is omniscient, all seeing, having no need of FAITH. There is nothing that Jesus hopes for, nothing that he cannot see. So, NO FAITH!

First off, ALL men have faith! It is a natural condition of man who has limited vision, and who can only hope for that which is perceived as promised. Thus man has an attribute that God does not, and that attribute is faith. No matter how vile a person may be, that person still "hopes for" something, and exhibits evidence of that which he cannot see. So every man has faith in something!

The faith spoken of in Scripture is FAITH in GOD. It is Faith in God that cometh by Hearing of God through God's Word. Man does not see God, nor does he know and understand all there is about God. But by Hearing God's word and believing the promises that God made to all men who believe, we who believe want what is promised, so we HOPE for it, and we exhibit Faith as the evidence that we shall receive that which is promised because we do believe the Word of God.

Faith is not a commodity that is transfered from one being to another. I can no more give you faith than you can give me faith. It is impossible to make such a transference. However, I can reveal to you the promises and the facts upon which my faith rests that God made and gave to me, that caused me to have faith in Him. Then it is up to you to believe or not believe as you see fit. But I retain every tittle of my FAITH, because it is MY FAITH, and not your faith. NOR is it GOD's faith, because God has no faith, and cannot give it if he does...Faith is not a commodity!

If you have faith in God, God did not give it to you, but instead gave you every reason to have such faith in HIM.

Likewise if you are sensing the Grace of God, It is not because God gave you HIS grace, but rather that by the absence of God's justice against you for your sins, you become aware that God is being gracious toward you. Grace is a BEHAVIORAL attribute of the one having it, the one who's justice you fear. Saddam Hussein exhibited "publically" a grace toward those who were loyal to him. He had established through dasterdly deeds of murder and destruction what would happen to those who were not loyal to him. Man fears God who has declared that "the wage for sin is death" every man sins, so every man has an innate fear of God. But because God is the God of Grace toward man, He does not mete out his justice as sins are committed. Else there would be no man left!

So, God is being gracious toward man, ALL men, so that they can hear his word, and change their own persuasion through the truth that "comes to man" through God's word. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. That does not mean that all men will be so persuaded. But it does mean that "By God's grace", whosoever believeth in God's son shall have everlasting life.

Again, God's Grace and man's faith are not commodities that are trasferable among men! God's grace must be perceived by man, and man must come to faith for himself. FAITH cannot be transfered from one to another. If it could, all 38 of my cousins would have faith because I would have given each of them some of mine.

 

[BBNewton]

Yelsew,

You stated:

"However, I can reveal to you the promises and the facts upon which my faith rests that God made and gave to me, that caused me to have faith in Him. Then it is up to you to believe or not believe as you see fit. But I retain every tittle of my FAITH, because it is MY FAITH, and not your faith."

You must be a truly holy man. Think of all the masses who hear the gospel but do not generate their own faith, they don't decide, they don't yield...but you saw fit; they didn't. In your view, heaven must indeed be the place of eternal boasting...a place where the saints can pat themsleves on the backs and take joy in the fact that they saw fit to believe.

We must always remember in thankfulness that the only reason why we come to Christ and overcome anything is solely by the grace of God. Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, in his Plan of Salvation, once noted:

As over against all teaching that would tempt man to trust in himself for any, even the smallest part, of his salvation, Christianity casts him utterly on God. It is God and God alone who saves, and that in every element of the saving process. “If there be but one stitch,” says Spurgeon aptly, “in the celestial garment of our righteousness which we ourselves are to put in, we are lost.” (51)

 

[Frogman]

Amen, a sound and resounding first post.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew2]

BBNEWTON,
What is it in my post that brought out your sarcasm?

I have nothing of which to boast, and neither do any of the saints in heaven have anything of which to boast, SAVE FOR 'BELIEF'. My salvation is entirely an act of God, but scriptures reveal that God saves only those who believe, that is, have faith in HIM.

"Believing" is strictly something of man and nothing of God. Believing in something means that you do not have experiential knowledge in that something, because if you did have such knowledge you would not need to believe.

Can you tell me of even one thing that God does not KNOW? Then God does not "believe", he "KNOWS". Man on the other hand, being the "clay" in the potters hand, does not KNOW, and must rely on the potter, the one with the knowledge. "Belief" is the only thing that man can have until he is in the very presence of Knowledge which scriptures reveal is future tense for man.

What is there in FAITH that "earns" a man a place in heaven? What is there in FAITH which is 'the accepting of' a revealed truth or a revealed promise, that man can boast about? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! So your premise about me is ABSOLUTELY WRONG!

It is not GOD's FAITH by which GOD saves man. God has no faith, He has Knowledge. 'Faith is the substance of things hoped for...' What pray tell is there that God hopes for? 'the evidence of things unseen'. What pray tell is there that God cannot see? Thus God has no faith! ONLY MAN has FAITH. Sorry, God, since you know all and see all you simply cannot have faith. That is what your scriptures reveal to faithful thinking men.

Now let's look at the attributes of God, Grace, Mercy, and Love. Man is made in the image of God, therefore man also has those same attributes, though in man they are human and not divine. An attribute is something that is true of the one possessing the attribute. Therefore if we say that God has grace, mercy and love, it must be true then, that those attributes are true of God. What is Grace? Mercy? Love? In man, each of them is a behavioral trait, that shapes the behavior of the one possessing them. If you are married, you "love" your wife. I challenge you then to "give your wife all of your love". If that were possible, you would have no love left in you, because you gave it all away. So then what is it that you give to your wife? It is Gifts or signs of your love for her. Your intimacy with your wife is the result of her response to the gifts of love that you give her out of your feeling of love toward her. You have not given her even one tittle of that love you possess for her, but you have demonstrated your love through "gifts of your behavior" toward her, and through "things", tokens that you give to her to demonstrate your love for her. She responds through her behavior to you and tokens of her love for you. Both of you Keep ALL the love that you have because Love is not a commodity of exchange! Grace and Mercy are the same, they are not commodities of exchange, but rather behavioral traits of the one possessing them. So to be saved by Grace, does not mean that God transfers anything from Himself to man, but rather that while God is behaving in accordance with his grace toward man, Man can be saved through man's faith in God!

Faith is the only attribute of man that is not present in God! It is the ONLY thing of man that God requires man to have in order to be saved, to have eternal life! John 3:16-21. Paul's statement of "for by grace are ye saved..." is misunderstood by everyone who does not have "Knowledge of the Holy" which is the title of a 100 page book by A. W. Tozer, a most outstanding exposition of the Attributes of God. I strongly recommend it to anyone who desires to understand God. Yes, the book is biblical, with many scriptures, in their context, used to explain truths.

As for your Spurgeon quote, I do not trust anything about ME, not even my faith in God, because being a man, I can be persuaded to stop believing the truths and facts upon which my faith in God is based. Therefore, I never take my eyes from the object of my faith. He is a constant reminder of what has been done for me without my help and without my intervention, that culminates in the promise that I will one day receive, and no longer have to believe, but will have the experiential knowledge of. But alas, 'til that day, MY faith is in God, God the Son, and my assurance of the promise is provided by the HOLY SPIRIT, my constant companion in living this natural life.

So BBNewton, your "charge" against me is false, and is due to your lack of knowledge of me and what I believe. You have taken a snippet of my understanding of Salvation and falsely accused me. Now why don't you go back and re-read what I posted. Then if you can prove me wrong, we may have something to discuss. If you have questions about what I posted, ask them, I'll be happy to provide you with an answer.

 

[BBNewton]

Yelsew,

I believe I know your line of thought.

1. According to your logic, faith is an inherent attribute of man.

God commands people to have faith.

Therefore, individuals are saved by putting their faith in God. This action is independent of God. The salvation is conditional.

This is a very common view. Here is an article by R.C. Sproul that I highly recommend you read:

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr01/mayjun/mr0103pelagian.html

Here's a few excerpts:

Modern Evangelicalism almost uniformly and universally teaches that in order for a person to be born again, he must first exercise faith. You have to choose to be born again. Isn't that what you hear? In a George Barna poll, more than seventy percent of "professing evangelical Christians" in America expressed the belief that man is basically good. And more than eighty percent articulated the view that God helps those who help themselves. These positions -- or let me say it negatively -- neither off these positions is semi-Pelagian. They're both Pelagian.

It is no wonder then that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being, in principle, both a return to Rome because, in effect, it turned faith into a meritorious work, and a betrayal of the Reformation because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the reformers' thought. Arminianism was indeed, in Reformed eyes, a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favor of New Testament Judaism. For to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle than to rely on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other.

 

[BBNewton]

Yelsew,

I believe people have saving faith because God gives it to them. God created the earth and everything in it by speaking a word. He can appoint a worm to attack Jonah's bush. He can raise the dead and give life to a valley full of dry bones. He can make himself incarnate and take upon the sins of the mass of the elect upon himself and declare them righteous. He can certainly give them faith.

In the words of A.W. Pink and C.H. Spurgeon:

"As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.

The comments of the beloved Spurgeon on the above passage are well worthy of our notice. Said he, "Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_04.html

 

[Yelsew2]

Yelsew,

I believe I know your line of thought.

1. According to your logic, faith is an inherent attribute of man.

God commands people to have faith.

Therefore, individuals are saved by putting their faith in God. This action is independent of God. The salvation is conditional.

If you believe what scripture says about man being made in the image of God, then you must concede that man has attributes in the manner that God has attributes. One attribute that God does not have that man MUST have is FAITH. Man has faith because of what God made man to be, and that is Limited by the senses of the flesh. Therefore man cannot see all, know all, do all, in the manner that God sees all, knows all and does all. For that reason, man not only must have faith, but man innately does have faith. But the faith that I am speaking of is not necessarily faith in God, which is a LEARNED faith, but rather faith that comes from not knowing and not seeing, but rather hoping for and acting upon that hope. Man, ALL men, have faith that their life will have some meaning, and that they will find that meaning before they die. All men have faith in something that is outside of themselves. All men have faith in that which they may only have a hint of existing. Many learn to have faith in money, many more learn to have faith in relatives, and many more yet have faith their life will take a turn for the better, without having a clue of how it might.

So Yes every man does have faith. God made it that way! If you refuse to acknowledge that, then you are refusing to acknowledge the wondrous creation that God made for which He gave his only begotten son as a ransom in order to redeem us from the clutches of sin. If God did not consider us worth redeeming, do you think he would give his only son?

This is a very common view. Here is an article by R.C. Sproul that I highly recommend you read:

http://www.modernreformation.org/mr01/mayjun/mr0103pelagian.html

You know, I've listened to Sproul's teachings for a couple decades now, and though he presents some convincing arguments, I believe that he is wrong in some of his theology. That is why I do not put my trust in him. Yes he did at one time "almost persuade me" to accept his belief, but my spirit, which was already sold out to Jesus, would not allow me peace in Sproul's teachings. You can believe what Sproul says if you wish, and I believe much of it, but I do not agree with all of it, my spirit which is guided by the Holy Spirit simply gives me no rest in it.

I believe that Sproul falls into the same trap that most all Calvinists do, they do not accept man in the way that God made man. They all want to demon-ize man, and that is something that God does not do. God loved man so much that he Gave man His only begotten son. You have to admit that there is no greater love than that. If man was as bad as Calvinism paints man to be, then God Himself would be foolish to love man the way He does.

For man to raise himself higher than God made him is also pure foolishness, and I simply refuse to do that!

Finally, the labels that people like you excel in putting on other people shows a gross immaturity in your faith. You fail to understand that in God's eyes there are only two categories of people, Believers (Sheep) and Unbelievers (Goats). You would do well to leave it at that!

 

[cdg]

Yelsew,

Ephesians 2:8- Faith is the gift of God,
By the way, every ability we have comes from God. We have nothing of ourselves. An Arminian might say "I have a will", but who gave you that will? God. People are made differently but we all are made. And what limits and abilities we have come from God. Your ability to have faith comes from God. Romans 12:3 says in the last part of the verse "...God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God has dealt(given) to every man some faith. So every man's faith must come from God.
Galatians 2:20 "...Faith of the Son of God..", the "of" there means that the Son of God does have faith. Its his faith.
Romans 10:17- Faith comes from hearing ,and hearing from the Word of God. Where does the Word of God come from? God.
Luke 17:4 "The apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith." How could He increase their faith if He possessed none? He does have faith to give to saints and sinners.
Galatians 2:16 (parts of the verse) "...by the faith of Jesus Christ... by the faith of Christ.." Of Christ, it means from Christ.
2 Thessalonians 3:2 "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."
Kind of hurts your "First off, ALL men have faith" argument doesn't it. That does not mean all men do not have a measure of faith just that they do not have saving faith.
Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the suthor and finisher of our faith..." He starts it and finishes it. Its by Him and from Him.
Revelatians 2:13 "... and hast not denied my faith..." Whose faith Christ's faith. So He must have faith. He said it Himself.
I can in a way give you faith, not the same way God does though. When one sees the pictures of Mars, one believes there is a Mars. Why because someone showed us a picture of it, they gave us faith. God gives faith through His Word. Sir, you are going against clear Scripture. I can say there is no moon but there it is outside. You can say God has no faith and He gives no faith, but there it is in Scripture.
And if it is faith "in God" why does it not say that. It says faith of(from) God. Have a nice day.

 

[cdg]

By the way I would not call myself a Calvinist, I do not follow Calvin. I follow the Bible(as best I can).