Just When Did Lucifer Fall?

[wpe3bql]

This past Sunday the "Senior-Aged" (55 YO & up) SS class was going over I John 3:4-10. When we got to 3:8, a question arose about the phrase "....for the devil sinneth from the beginning [emphasis mine].

To which "beginning" is John here referring?

Is this "beginning" the very same "beginning" mentioned in Genesis 1:1, i.e., the "beginning" wherein God created the entire physical universe, or was it some other kind of "beginning," namely a "beginning" BEFORE the creation of the physical universe?

I personally tend to believe that the "Fall of Lucifer" and its subsequent change from him being the "Day Star" to the Devil or Satan took place sometime before Genesis 1:1, but I can't point to any specific Scripture(s) that comes right out and definitely says so.

The only other places I know of that records his fall (and the reason for it) are in Isaiah 14:12-17 (or 14:12-23) and in Ezekiel 28:11-13 (or 28:11-19).

However neither of these passages seem to say exactly WHEN our adversary fell.

In light of this, I suppose it's really a matter of speculation as to exactly when Lucifer fell.

About the only thing I know with any degree of certainty is that he must have fallen sometime prior to the events in Genesis 3:1 ff.

I'd like to read what some of the great theological BB giants have to say about this. So, guys and gals, here's your chance to add to your number of BB posts! :thumbs: :type: :wavey:

 

[SovereignGrace]

FYI, Lucifer was referencing Nebachadnezzar.


From Nave's Topical Bible

Lucifer•••Nebuchadnezzar called by this name

http://www.godward.org/hebrew roots/Feature Articles/who_is lucifer.htm

https://openingtheseals.wordpress.com/isaiahs-oracles/isaiah-13-14-lucifer-just-another-name/


http://www.inplainsite.org/html/lucifer.html

Here's a nice little bit of info from this last link:

Is Lucifer Another Name For Satan?


Lucifer

One of the most common misconceptions among Bible believers is that Lucifer is another name for Satan, based on a single occurrence of the word … the King James translation of Isaiah 14:12, which reads...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

However the name "Lucifer" does not exist in the Hebrew text, nor the Greek translation (The Septuagint), but was derived from Jerome’s 4th century AD translation of this verse into Latin. Lucifer is a Latin name, which could not exist in a Hebrew manuscript, written before Latin even existed.


The KJV translators simply borrowed the name from Jerome's translation of the Bible.
Note however that Jerome was not in error. Lucifer which means "light-bearer", was the fourth century Latin name for the planet Venus, which reaches its maximum brightness shortly before sunrise or shortly after sunset, for which reason it has been known as the Morning Star or Evening Star. As “Morning Star” Venus heralds daylight.

The Hebrew term translated in the KJV as “O Lucifer, son of the morning” is Helel ben Shahar.. literally ‘Helel son of Shahar’. In the Babylonian / Canaanite religions, Helel which means to shine or to bear light, and Shalim, the god of dusk were twin brothers... sons of Shahar, the god of the dawn. Hence ‘Helel son of Shahar’

”Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur…” (NET Bible. http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm).

- See more at: http://www.inplainsite.org/html/lucifer.html#sthash.P0kIjQgs.dpuf

Not to derail the thread, but this info needs to be given. Lucifer is not, and was never, Satan.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

You should change your name to "He who brings it".

Very good stuff.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

FYI, Lucifer was referencing Nebachadnezzar.


From Nave's Topical Bible

Lucifer•••Nebuchadnezzar called by this name

http://www.godward.org/hebrew roots/Feature Articles/who_is lucifer.htm

https://openingtheseals.wordpress.com/isaiahs-oracles/isaiah-13-14-lucifer-just-another-name/


http://www.inplainsite.org/html/lucifer.html

Here's a nice little bit of info from this last link:





Not to derail the thread, but this info needs to be given. Lucifer is not, and was never, Satan.

When did Nebuchadnezzar fall from heaven?

 

[Zenas]

This past Sunday the "Senior-Aged" (55 YO & up) SS class was going over I John 3:4-10. When we got to 3:8, a question arose about the phrase "....for the devil sinneth from the beginning [emphasis mine].

To which "beginning" is John here referring?

Is this "beginning" the very same "beginning" mentioned in Genesis 1:1, i.e., the "beginning" wherein God created the entire physical universe, or was it some other kind of "beginning," namely a "beginning" BEFORE the creation of the physical universe?

I personally tend to believe that the "Fall of Lucifer" and its subsequent change from him being the "Day Star" to the Devil or Satan took place sometime before Genesis 1:1, but I can't point to any specific Scripture(s) that comes right out and definitely says so.

The only other places I know of that records his fall (and the reason for it) are in Isaiah 14:12-17 (or 14:12-23) and in Ezekiel 28:11-13 (or 28:11-19).

However neither of these passages seem to say exactly WHEN our adversary fell.

In light of this, I suppose it's really a matter of speculation as to exactly when Lucifer fell.

About the only thing I know with any degree of certainty is that he must have fallen sometime prior to the events in Genesis 3:1 ff.

I'd like to read what some of the great theological BB giants have to say about this. So, guys and gals, here's your chance to add to your number of BB posts! :thumbs: :type: :wavey:

The fall of Satan is detailed in Revelation 12:3-12, although there is no clue as to when this really happened. I would agree that about the only thing we can say for sure is that it happened before Genesis 3:1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

When did Nebuchadnezzar fall from heaven?

Please read this link, monsieur.


https://openingtheseals.wordpress.com/isaiahs-oracles/isaiah-13-14-lucifer-just-another-name/

It is not very long, but very informative.

I used to believe the opposite, but no longer.

 

[Revmitchell]

This past Sunday the "Senior-Aged" (55 YO & up) SS class was going over I John 3:4-10. When we got to 3:8, a question arose about the phrase "....for the devil sinneth from the beginning [emphasis mine].

To which "beginning" is John here referring?

Is this "beginning" the very same "beginning" mentioned in Genesis 1:1, i.e., the "beginning" wherein God created the entire physical universe, or was it some other kind of "beginning," namely a "beginning" BEFORE the creation of the physical universe?

I personally tend to believe that the "Fall of Lucifer" and its subsequent change from him being the "Day Star" to the Devil or Satan took place sometime before Genesis 1:1, but I can't point to any specific Scripture(s) that comes right out and definitely says so.

The only other places I know of that records his fall (and the reason for it) are in Isaiah 14:12-17 (or 14:12-23) and in Ezekiel 28:11-13 (or 28:11-19).

However neither of these passages seem to say exactly WHEN our adversary fell.

In light of this, I suppose it's really a matter of speculation as to exactly when Lucifer fell.

About the only thing I know with any degree of certainty is that he must have fallen sometime prior to the events in Genesis 3:1 ff.

I'd like to read what some of the great theological BB giants have to say about this. So, guys and gals, here's your chance to add to your number of BB posts! :thumbs: :type: :wavey:

Getting back to the op:

The use of the phrase "from the beginning" is most likely not a reference to a time in history as it is a chronology of who began the act of sinning and the extent of that sin. Satan was the first to sin and has ever since he began. This sets up the context for the word "commits" in that passage. It means one who lives a life of sin as Satan does. Satan wants it, does not want to stop, is comfortable doing it, and will continue to do it.

This is the comparison made to people. These type of people who act in this same way are not born of God.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Please read this link, monsieur.


https://openingtheseals.wordpress.com/isaiahs-oracles/isaiah-13-14-lucifer-just-another-name/

It is not very long, but very informative.

I used to believe the opposite, but no longer.

It wasn't a satisfactory explanation for me.

 

[wpe3bql]

Getting back to the op:

The use of the phrase "from the beginning" is most likely not a reference to a time in history as it is a chronology of who began the act of sinning and the extent of that sin. Satan was the first to sin and has ever since he began. This sets up the context for the word "commits" in that passage. It means one who lives a life of sin as Satan does. Satan wants it, does not want to stop, is comfortable doing it, and will continue to do it.

This is the comparison made to people. These type of people who act in this same way are not born of God.

Rev: I totally agree with you on what you posted. The real emphasis of I John 3:4-10 is to point out that people who claim to be "in Christ" but whose lives are marked by continuing on in sin are lying (cf. I John 1:6).

This is what John is telling his readers---IOW, if a person is truly saved, his life ought to be marked not with total sinless perfection (I John 1:10), but with a gradual trend towards living a life that is as free from outright blatant, unrepentant as humanly possible.

Yes, we'll stumble and fall in the process, and as Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-25, it's a lifelong struggle because we still have our old fleshly nature with which to contend.

But, on the plus side, once we've received Christ as our Savior, God gives us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, His Son as an advocate to plead our "case" before His Father, and the written Word to encourage us in our struggles.

IOW, God has given us a "Three-to-One" edge over our flesh, this sin-cursed world, and Satan himself. Them's pretty good odds, but only if we avail ourselves of the power that they possess.

My problem is that quite often I'll forget to use them, and, instead depend on my own unarmored flesh to fight against the wiles of the devil.

Guess who wins then.

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev: I totally agree with you on what you posted. The real emphasis of I John 3:4-10 is to point out that people who claim to be "in Christ" but whose lives are marked by continuing on in sin are lying (cf. I John 1:6).

This is what John is telling his readers---IOW, if a person is truly saved, his life ought to be marked not with total sinless perfection (I John 1:10), but with a gradual trend towards living a life that is as free from outright blatant, unrepentant as humanly possible.

Yes, we'll stumble and fall in the process, and as Paul wrote in Romans 7:14-25, it's a lifelong struggle because we still have our old fleshly nature with which to contend.

But, on the plus side, once we've received Christ as our Savior, God gives us the Holy Spirit to dwell in us, His Son as an advocate to plead our "case" before His Father, and the written Word to encourage us in our struggles.

IOW, God has given us a "Three-to-One" edge over our flesh, this sin-cursed world, and Satan himself. Them's pretty good odds, but only if we avail ourselves of the power that they possess.

My problem is that quite often I'll forget to use them, and, instead depend on my own unarmored flesh to fight against the wiles of the devil.

Guess who wins then.

We need to remember that we have received the spirit of God (1 Cor 2:12). Our spirits are saved but our souls are being sanctified. Hence the need to work out our salvation as Paul directed. There is not now no improvement or salvation for our bodies until the day of our full redemption. Jesus made this clear when he spoke to His disciples about prayer "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak".

 

[revmwc]

This past Sunday the "Senior-Aged" (55 YO & up) SS class was going over I John 3:4-10. When we got to 3:8, a question arose about the phrase "....for the devil sinneth from the beginning [emphasis mine].

To which "beginning" is John here referring?

Is this "beginning" the very same "beginning" mentioned in Genesis 1:1, i.e., the "beginning" wherein God created the entire physical universe, or was it some other kind of "beginning," namely a "beginning" BEFORE the creation of the physical universe?

I personally tend to believe that the "Fall of Lucifer" and its subsequent change from him being the "Day Star" to the Devil or Satan took place sometime before Genesis 1:1, but I can't point to any specific Scripture(s) that comes right out and definitely says so.

The only other places I know of that records his fall (and the reason for it) are in Isaiah 14:12-17 (or 14:12-23) and in Ezekiel 28:11-13 (or 28:11-19).

However neither of these passages seem to say exactly WHEN our adversary fell.

In light of this, I suppose it's really a matter of speculation as to exactly when Lucifer fell.

About the only thing I know with any degree of certainty is that he must have fallen sometime prior to the events in Genesis 3:1 ff.

I'd like to read what some of the great theological BB giants have to say about this. So, guys and gals, here's your chance to add to your number of BB posts! :thumbs: :type: :wavey:

I believe satan's fall was prior to creation.

Ezekiel 28:
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

When he was in Eden it was to tempt Eve and bring man's fall. So he fell before Eden and the creation.

Also

Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So the lake of fire was created for satan and his angels, that would again indicate a pre-creation fall.

 

[McCree79]

When did Nebuchadnezzar fall from heaven?

ISAIAH—NOTE ON 14:12–15 fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! Using rich poetic imagery, the king of Babylon is addressed with sarcastic irony. From the great heights of his pride, arrogance, and rebellion against God, his downfall brings him to the depths of Sheol. the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north. In Canaanite mythology, the gods sat in assembly on a northern mountain (cf. Ps. 48:1–2). like the Most High. See Gen. 3:5; 11:4. Some have seen here a poetic allusion in which the fallen king of Babylon is likened to a fallen Satan. At the minimum, the extravagant pretensions of the king of Babylon are graphically and poetically portrayed, from the heights of God-defying arrogance (“I will make myself like the Most High”) to the depths of destruction in the far reaches of the pit. (See also note on Ezek. 28:11–19.) ISAIAH—NOTE ON 14:21 Babylon’s proud royal line will end forever, while Isaiah expects David’s royal line to last forever and to bless all mankind (9:6–7; cf. Psalm 45; 72). -ESV Study Bible notes

*verse 4 indicates the king of Babylon is the subject of this taunt.

 

[HankD]

I realize this is technically off the subject of the OP but the identity of "Lucifer" (Lit. helel) as the devil in Isaiah has the same explanation as the Ezekiel 28 King of Tyre passage. The reference in each case is from typology because each king had the characteristics of the pride of the devil and were associated (rightly or wrongly, - I believe rightly) with these kings from antiquity.

A Google search of biblical research will reveal both pro and con concerning the identity of "Lucifer" as the devil or Satan.

HankD

 

[percho]

he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up (destroy) the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8 YLT

The devil sinned from the beginning and began his works. What is primarily, the work of the devil? What is the last enemy to be destroyed and from whence comes it?

1 Cor 15:25 The last enemy shall be destroyed, death.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Because the devil sinned from the beginning and that sin was relative to the power of death, God was going to manifest himself as something to deal with the devil, Satan and his power, death.

Per the above Heb. 2:14 that would require God becoming subject to that power.

Why did God create Adam in his own image, yet carnal, sold under sin and take the woman from the man as a help meet for the man? Why was the Son of God manifested? Manifested as Adam was created? Through whom did the Son of God come into the world? Was it a virgin, woman? Was the blood of the Christ known to be shed from before the foundation of the world for the purpose of redemption? 1 Peter 1:18-20 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Slain from the foundation of the world. To buy back that which would be sold?

Before the foundation of the world, how would this redeemer come into the world, the Son of God? Gal 4:4,5 RSV But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

'Elohiym, God said unto Moses, literally, "I Will Be What I Will Be," translated, I Am That I Am. Ex 3:14

Why was Adam created? Was his creation relative to the sin of Satan the devil?

I say Satan the devil was cast out of the heavens unto the earth and brought death and darkness upon the face of the deep prior to Genesis 1:2.

 

[SovereignGrace]

ISAIAH—NOTE ON 14:12–15 fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! Using rich poetic imagery, the king of Babylon is addressed with sarcastic irony. From the great heights of his pride, arrogance, and rebellion against God, his downfall brings him to the depths of Sheol. the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north. In Canaanite mythology, the gods sat in assembly on a northern mountain (cf. Ps. 48:1–2). like the Most High. See Gen. 3:5; 11:4. Some have seen here a poetic allusion in which the fallen king of Babylon is likened to a fallen Satan. At the minimum, the extravagant pretensions of the king of Babylon are graphically and poetically portrayed, from the heights of God-defying arrogance (“I will make myself like the Most High”) to the depths of destruction in the far reaches of the pit. (See also note on Ezek. 28:11–19.) ISAIAH—NOTE ON 14:21 Babylon’s proud royal line will end forever, while Isaiah expects David’s royal line to last forever and to bless all mankind (9:6–7; cf. Psalm 45; 72). -ESV Study Bible notes

*verse 4 indicates the king of Babylon is the subject of this taunt.

Yes. Agree.

 

[robycop3]

Satan fell before creation of the present earth surface.

Proof?

God created the tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL. thus, evil had to exist before that time.

And Satan, as the serpent, had already fallen when he led Eve into sin.