Just "WHO" does Christ save?

[HAMel]

...a play on words here perhaps but, it seems to me the Lord does not remove a barrier but rather, He allows one to see. We are permitted to see as per the condition of the heart.

Ego, in adults, reminds me of that "barrier" and that is constructed by the individual. A bad childhood experience can certainly alter the disposition of a child but eventually they come around once maturity, responsibility and awareness begin to take hold. To me, it's all in the heart...

 

[DaChaser1]

Not technically, for we must otherwise define "belief" which has two possible definitions -- one a belief from God and the other a belief from anthropos.

Those who merely believe from anthropos cannot know God unless or until God Himself removes the barrier of separation that keeps us from Him.

Wouldn't they say that in the Cross God already had reconciled Himself back to Man, that brought the "barrier" down?

 

[glfredrick]

...a play on words here perhaps but, it seems to me the Lord does not remove a barrier but rather, He allows one to see. We are permitted to see as per the condition of the heart.

Ego, in adults, reminds me of that "barrier" and that is constructed by the individual. A bad childhood experience can certainly alter the disposition of a child but eventually they come around once maturity, responsibility and awareness begin to take hold. To me, it's all in the heart...

Same difference, and God is as capable of doing that in as many ways as there are human beings who need it done. Like finger prints, retinal patterns, and our DNA, we are unique individuals who have unique minds, souls, spirits, bodies. Therefore, God, who is infinite in His ability can tailor an encounter however He wishes in order to further His elective purpose.

I was reflecting on that principle this morning during my early morning study. God is fully capable of exercising His divine sovereignty to bring about the free actions of individuals so that their actions, freely committed, yet work for the end that God desires. The actions remain free (in a limited moral sense) and yet, because of God's attribute of omnipresence and omnipotence, He already knows and has made a plan both to guide that free exercise and to know it happens. So agree virtually all in the church (generic) world, both Protestant, Baptist, Catholic, etc., until very recently with the advance of the open theism doctrine, which is as false as it can be, for it does great damage to our image of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[glfredrick]

Wouldn't they say that in the Cross God already had reconciled Himself back to Man, that brought the "barrier" down?

Are you suggesting universalism? (And I know what comes next...)

 

[DaChaser1]

HUH!?! Isnt separation from God & the sin of non belief the same?

our natural state at birth is as a sinner, have a sin nature, and that is what seperates us from God!

unbelief in Christ natural byproduct of being seperated from God due to being sinners who are spiritual dead, and until God enables us to see the light/truth of Christ, we are all unbelievers in regards to Christ!

 

[glfredrick]

our natural state at birth is as a sinner, have a sin nature, and that is what seperates us from God!

unbelief in Christ natural byproduct of being seperated from God due to being sinners who are spiritual dead, and until God enables us to see the light/truth of Christ, we are all unbelievers in regards to Christ!

I'd rather say that we are born in sin, for it is "sin" that is that absence of God while "sins" or "sinner" stipulates action. We are in fact "sinners" for we do indeed sin, and that because we are born with an absence of God so our only natural state IS to sin, even from birth, even without knowing it.

 

[DaChaser1]

I'd rather say that we are born in sin, for it is "sin" that is that absence of God while "sins" or "sinner" stipulates action. We are in fact "sinners" for we do indeed sin, and that because we are born with an absence of God so our only natural state IS to sin, even from birth, even without knowing it.

yes, we are indeed born into a natural state that has us seperated from God, and later on that comes out in willful sinful decisions and practices!

We perish NOT due to "just" rejecting Jesus as messiah, but due to our spirital bad condition already was in before God even before rejection of jesus!

think some of our arms/non call bethren make it appear that we are "ok" until actually rejection of jesus, as THAT makes us hell bound!

 

[DaChaser1]

Are you suggesting universalism? (And I know what comes next...)

Since some arms seem to imply that its rejection of Christ that actually condemns us, that we have been generally reconcilled by God thru the Christ..

is there the place where Christians have seen "limited universalism", as in saved IF either never heard of jesus, or sincere in their own religion?

 

[preacher4truth]

Mankind is already condemned prior to this.

 

[DaChaser1]

Mankind is already condemned prior to this.

Not per some of our fellow bethren here on BB!

 

[righteousdude2]

Back at You EWF

so your answer is 1, 2 or 3? Simple question.

And when you were saved....which number were you? Simple question, too!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And when you were saved....which number were you? Simple question, too!

You go 1st RD.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not per some of our fellow bethren here on BB!

There are several non-cals who hold to this among other false teachings, you are correct.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

yes, we are indeed born into a natural state that has us seperated from God, and later on that comes out in willful sinful decisions and practices!

We perish NOT due to "just" rejecting Jesus as messiah, but due to our spirital bad condition already was in before God even before rejection of jesus!

think some of our arms/non call bethren make it appear that we are "ok" until actually rejection of jesus, as THAT makes us hell bound!

If Christ died for everyones sins, is not even the sin of non belief also imputed? That in a nut shell is John Owen's argument.

 

[righteousdude2]

You go 1st RD.

As I already said...

...Revelations 22:17 - "The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need [a]of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost."

Also: John 6:35 - "Jesus replied, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will...'"

And: Acts 2:14-21 "That's when Peter stood up and, backed by the other eleven, spoke out with bold urgency: "Fellow Jews, all of you who are visiting Jerusalem, listen carefully and get this story straight. These people aren't drunk as some of you suspect. They haven't had time to get drunk—it's only nine o'clock in the morning. This is what the prophet Joel announced would happen: "In the Last Days," God says, "I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters; Your young men will see visions, your old men dream dreams. When the time comes, I'll pour out my Spirit On those who serve me, men and women both, and they'll prophesy. I'll set wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and billowing smoke, the sun turning black and the moon blood-red, Before the Day of the Lord arrives, the Day tremendous and marvelous; And whoever calls out for help to me, God, will be saved."

He saves....whosoever will come to Him, in faith, will to repent, and follow Him!

Without appearing redundant, EW&F, I am a "whosoever!" So I guess that would make me SAVED (as one of the many He came and died for)! I was one of the WHO that came, repented and followed Him!

So take it one step farther: the whosoever terminology does have an infinite connotation to it, so you can presume (or deduce) that in my case, He came and died for the multitudes! Which would make me number one in His eye (sort of like the apple-of-His-eye) as well as in the Lamb's Book of Life! :jesus:

:wavey: Now it's your turn, brother. Which number are you??? :wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As I already said...

...Revelations 22:17 - "The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need [a]of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost."

Also: John 6:35 - "Jesus replied, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will...'"

And: Acts 2:14-21 "That's when Peter stood up and, backed by the other eleven, spoke out with bold urgency: "Fellow Jews, all of you who are visiting Jerusalem, listen carefully and get this story straight. These people aren't drunk as some of you suspect. They haven't had time to get drunk—it's only nine o'clock in the morning. This is what the prophet Joel announced would happen: "In the Last Days," God says, "I will pour out my Spirit on every kind of people: Your sons will prophesy, also your daughters; Your young men will see visions, your old men dream dreams. When the time comes, I'll pour out my Spirit On those who serve me, men and women both, and they'll prophesy. I'll set wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, Blood and fire and billowing smoke, the sun turning black and the moon blood-red, Before the Day of the Lord arrives, the Day tremendous and marvelous; And whoever calls out for help to me, God, will be saved."

He saves....whosoever will come to Him, in faith, will to repent, and follow Him!

Without appearing redundant, EW&F, I am a "whosoever!" So I guess that would make me SAVED (as one of the many He came and died for)! I was one of the WHO that came, repented and followed Him!

So take it one step farther: the whosoever terminology does have an infinite connotation to it, so you can presume (or deduce) that in my case, He came and died for the multitudes! Which would make me number one in His eye (sort of like the apple-of-His-eye) as well as in the Lamb's Book of Life! :jesus:

:wavey: Now it's your turn, brother. Which number are you??? :wavey:

Whilst the action of the cross is effective only for the elect, the shedding of the blood, like the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, is sufficient for all..... the blood has the ability to redeem all but is effective only for believers.

 

[righteousdude2]

Whilst the action of the cross is effective only for the elect, the shedding of the blood, like the sacrifices of the Old Covenant, is sufficient for all..... the blood has the ability to redeem all but is effective only for believers.

Did you know that "whilst" is only one letters shy of whistle, the sound of steam, moving rapidly as it comes through a small aperture on a tea pot, for one!

It is also one letter short of the sound that signals the end of the game.

:godisgood: BTW - have you found a church yet? I will pray for that to happen, as it is important for the sheep (you and I) to be fed and led, as well as enjoy the pure *koinonia of being around others who, like you and I, are saved through their faith and His Grace which is imparted to all who come, repent and follow!!! :wavey:

And if by elect, you mean "all" whosoever came to Him, repented, and are now following Him, then we are defintiely on the same page of Scripture, and more importantly, on the same page of the Lamb's Book of Life! :type:

Love you brother...

*SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koinonia

 

[Aaron]

Just "WHOM" does Christ save?

I think we have discussed this before but John Owen proposes 3 possible scenarios regarding the EXTENT of atonement:

1. Jesus died for the sins of ALL People.

2. Jesus died for the sins of some people.

3. Jesus died for "some sins" of all people.

Pick one and please explain your selection.

Second option. He died for His elect.

 

[DaChaser1]

Second option. He died for His elect.

His death was infinite worth, so could have paid for atonememnt for all sins all peoples, JUST effectual apllied though to those whom God elected to be saved by/in Him!

 

[DaChaser1]

If Christ died for everyones sins, is not even the sin of non belief also imputed? That in a nut shell is John Owen's argument.

Think issue were we have to do better clarification on here is what we mean by 'Limited Atonment!"

sometimes it seems like cals saying that His death ONLY was able to cover for sins of the Elected only, as in having a limited value/worth

I see it as being unlimited in its ability to paid for sins, that all were able to be covered by it, but ONLY applied and effectual towards the Elect chosen beforehand by the Father to be found in Christ!

Good tidbit on John Owens!

Are you saying that he viewed that the sin of rejecting Christ wa simuted to those lost beforehand by God, as in predestination by God for lost to go to hell? Double predestined of the elect and the lost!