Justice: God's perspective vs. man's perspective

[The Archangel]

This earlier exchange took place between Skandelon and me:

I think you are correct when you say "My argument has to do with the common understanding, most accepted meanings and even the most varied technical definitions of the term "justice." You are arguing about justice. However, you are arguing about justice from the man's-eye point of view, not the biblical, or God's-eye, point of view.

That is the problem and the great chasm between us on this issue.

The Archangel

EDITED IN:

The argumentum ad captadum, being the appeal to emotion or, literally "catching the common herd," was leveled at you because of your appeal to a human understanding of justice, not a biblical understanding of justice. Thus it was an appeal to the emotion of humans who viewed your false portrayal of biblical justice as being the same as human justice and seeking to get them on your side by this "justice" argument when the premise of human justice is non-sequitur to biblical justice as you have argued it.

Really? Aren't you "begging the question" (yet another fallacy) just a bit to assume your view of justice is supported biblically?

1. Why has every justice system of man (including those in the bible) not allow for this type of so-called justice?

2. If "Justice" is as you have described then would you be ok with our American system judging and condemning mankind by these same so called views of "justice?"

3. Where in scripture does it define justice as being the certain condemnation of one man for the sin of another without hope of redemption ...all the while the appeals for reconciliation, frustration and pretend patience of the judge? How is man "without excuse" in your view of justice?

So, before I begin to answer the questions posed above, allow me to clarify:

Is it not "begging the question" on your part to assume your view of justice is supported biblically? Of course it is, but I digress.

1. Are you arguing that biblical justice must never allow someone to be condemned for something they did not do?

2. Are you arguing that man must be given an opportunity to respond or God is acting unjustly?

Please let me know and we'll go from there.

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

So, before I begin to answer the questions posed above, allow me to clarify:

Is it not "begging the question" on your part to assume your view of justice is supported biblically? Of course it is, but I digress.

Assuming or "begging the question" is making the a claim as if it is an established fact, when in truth it is the very point up for debate. You are the one who assumed my argument was apposed to God without an argument supporting your claim. Yes, part of my argument appealed to the common understanding of human justice, but that was not the extent of my argument. I also appealed to biblical views of justice though I admit we have not gotten very specific as of yet. I was trying to put the burden on you to provide an argument to back up your quip...

1. Are you arguing that biblical justice must never allow someone to be condemned for something they did not do?

Well, scripture is clear to say we have all fallen short of God's glory because we have all sinned. That being said, I don't have a problem with the concept of federal headship:

As the Bible knowledge Commentary says, "The federal headship view considers Adam, the first man, as the representative of the human race that generated from him. As the representative of all humans, Adam’s act of sin was considered by God to be the act of all people and his penalty of death was judicially made the penalty of everybody."

Again, I agree with this view as long as you also believe what Paul teaches when he say in 1 Cor. 15:45: “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." The "last Adam" is a reference to Jesus because of the similar relationship that exists between them both. That is, both Adam and Jesus are representative heads.

As I explained before, the idea that Adam represents all mankind is fine as long as one is consistent in believing that Jesus did likewise. The accusation of "unfairness" or "injustice" against Calvinism comes when they try to claim that Adam represented all but Christ only represented a few. As Adam's sin was imputed to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. IN BOTH CASES the implications of that imputation is conditional; in the first case it's conditional upon our sin (Rm 5:12) and in the second case it's conditional upon our faith.

I think the biblical account supports the idea of federal headship universally for both the first Adam and the second Adam...Jesus:

Consider Romans 5:

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice in both of these verses the same "all men/many" represented by Adam were the same "all men/many" represented by Christ. Does that mean as you suggested earlier that universalism is the only conclusion? NOT of the imputation of that representative is conditional...which it clearly is in BOTH cases.

2. Are you arguing that man must be given an opportunity to respond or God is acting unjustly?

To be "without excuse," according to Romans chapter 1 a person will:

1. Know the truth and suppress it.
2. Know about God because God has made himself plain to them
3. Know God's invisible qualities
4. Know God's divine nature and eternal power, having been "CLEARLY SEEN" AND "UNDERSTOOD."

As seen here:

"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Calvinism implies men are born deaf, dead, dumb and totally unable to comprehend God's revelations until made alive by an effectual divine regenerative work, which in my view gives the unregenerate the perfect excuse on the the day of judgement.

 

[Winman]

Notice in both of these verses the same "all men/many" represented by Adam were the same "all men/many" represented by Christ. Does that mean as you suggested earlier that universalism is the only conclusion? NOT of the imputation of that representative is conditional...which it clearly is in BOTH cases.

I agree Skandelon. Adam brought sin into the world, and death by sin. But then Rom 5:12 says death passed upon all men for (because) that all have sinned. Death does not pass upon us because of Adam, it passes upon us because of our own sin. So, it is conditional. If it is not conditional, then Romans 5:18-19 would have to teach that the free gift of Jesus's righteousness would have to pass on all men unconditionally, and all would be saved. And we know that is not the case.

And Christ brought righteousness into the world, and life by righteousness, but it is conditioned upon faith in Jesus.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Scripture is clear that faith in Jesus is first required before God's free gift of righteousness is imputed to us. So, it is conditional as well.

 

[The Archangel]

Well, scripture is clear to say we have all fallen short of God's glory because we have all sinned. That being said, I don't have a problem with the concept of federal headship:

As the Bible knowledge Commentary says, "The federal headship view considers Adam, the first man, as the representative of the human race that generated from him. As the representative of all humans, Adam’s act of sin was considered by God to be the act of all people and his penalty of death was judicially made the penalty of everybody."

Again, I agree with this view as long as you also believe what Paul teaches when he say in 1 Cor. 15:45: “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." The "last Adam" is a reference to Jesus because of the similar relationship that exists between them both. That is, both Adam and Jesus are representative heads.

As I explained before, the idea that Adam represents all mankind is fine as long as one is consistent in believing that Jesus did likewise. The accusation of "unfairness" or "injustice" against Calvinism comes when they try to claim that Adam represented all but Christ only represented a few. As Adam's sin was imputed to us because of the Fall, our sin was likewise imputed to Jesus on the cross and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. IN BOTH CASES the implications of that imputation is conditional; in the first case it's conditional upon our sin (Rm 5:12) and in the second case it's conditional upon our faith.

I think the biblical account supports the idea of federal headship universally for both the first Adam and the second Adam...Jesus:

Consider Romans 5:

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice in both of these verses the same "all men/many" represented by Adam were the same "all men/many" represented by Christ. Does that mean as you suggested earlier that universalism is the only conclusion? NOT of the imputation of that representative is conditional...which it clearly is in BOTH cases.

I notice what is going on in the text, but the all men/many is simply parallelism. Here are the parallels in Romans 5:

v. 15 many died...grace abounded for many.

But we know that in Adam we all die (v. 12). Not many die...all die. So, do we say the Bible contradicts itself? No. We recognize that Paul is using parallelism.

v. 18 one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men

But we know that not all will be saved. Again, there is clearly parallelism.

v. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

But we know that all are made sinners (there is none righteous; all have sinned...; etc.). Again a parallelism.

Paul is making contrasts here between being in Adam and being in Christ. Besides, verses 1-11 of Romans 5 govern the 12 and following passage. Paul begins Romans 5 addressing believers and God's work on our behalf. So, the passage you are talking about here (12-21) is addressing believers, not stating facts about mankind in general.

Furthermore, inclusion in "Adam" is in no way conditional. All are in Adam whether we like it or not. This is demonstrated by Romans 5:13-14 where there is no law, yet people are still dying. Why? Because Adam's sin-guilt passed on to his progeny. Inclusion in Adam is unconditional. Inclusion in Christ is also unconditional, but that is another discussion.

To be "without excuse," according to Romans chapter 1 a person will:

1. Know the truth and suppress it.
2. Know about God because God has made himself plain to them
3. Know God's invisible qualities
4. Know God's divine nature and eternal power, having been "CLEARLY SEEN" AND "UNDERSTOOD."

As seen here:

"18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Calvinism implies men are born deaf, dead, dumb and totally unable to comprehend God's revelations until made alive by an effectual divine regenerative work, which in my view gives the unregenerate the perfect excuse on the the day of judgement.

You cannot reach the conclusion(s) you have reached by reading Romans 1 without a great amount of reading into things. You say:

God reveals Himself, this is true. How does He do it? God's "eternal power" and "divine nature" have been demonstrated to all in the things that have been made. So, God reveals Himself, in a general way, through creation.

You imply we have to come to know the truth and if we don't we are free from condemnation. This means that those who have never heard the Gospel (the unreached people in, say, Africa) will be saved. Wrong.

General revelation--creation, the universe, the created order, etc--is enough to reveal the magnificence of God to everyone, but it is not enough to save anyone. While the creation tells us of God, it does not tell us of Christ or the Gospel.

The issue in Romans 1 is not what God has or has not revealed. The issue is the rejection of God by mankind. After all "no one seeks after God." Romans one is not drawing a dichotomy between the righteous man and the unrighteous man. There is no "righteous man" for "all have sinned."

So, I'll ask the questions again:

1. Are you arguing that biblical justice must never allow someone to be condemned for something they did not do?

2. Are you arguing that man must be given an opportunity to respond or God is acting unjustly?

A simple "yes" or "no" will do. Feel free to explain, but answer the questions first.

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

I notice what is going on in the text, but the all men/many is simply parallelism. Here are the parallels in Romans 5:

v. 15 many died...grace abounded for many.

But we know that in Adam we all die (v. 12). Not many die...all die. So, do we say the Bible contradicts itself? No. We recognize that Paul is using parallelism.

v. 18 one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men

But we know that not all will be saved. Again, there is clearly parallelism.

v. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

But we know that all are made sinners (there is none righteous; all have sinned...; etc.). Again a parallelism.

I agree. It is parallelism, so why do you want to make it unparalleled by presuming upon the text something it never says. "Many" may mean "all" but it most certainly never means "few," which it would have to mean with your interpretation because "few are those who find" the narrow path that leads to life. Relatively few people are saved, we both agree with that, so to think that Paul's word "many" refers to the relatively few that are saved is absurd. The same "many" that are represented in Adam are represented in Christ, period. To say otherwise is to undo the very parallelism you espouse.

Paul is making contrasts here between being in Adam and being in Christ. Besides, verses 1-11 of Romans 5 govern the 12 and following passage. Paul begins Romans 5 addressing believers and God's work on our behalf. So, the passage you are talking about here (12-21) is addressing believers, not stating facts about mankind in general

.

Oh, so when Paul wrote, "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned," he was just speaking of believers and not mankind in general? Really?!?

When he goes on to address the law entering the WORLD and and death reigning until the time of Moses, he wasn't addressing mankind, but only believers? And when he says, "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men," he is really just addressing believers? Really?!?

That doesn't make much sense to me, please explain how you came to that conclusion.

Furthermore, inclusion in "Adam" is in no way conditional. All are in Adam whether we like it or not. This is demonstrated by Romans 5:13-14 where there is no law, yet people are still dying. Why? Because Adam's sin-guilt passed on to his progeny. Inclusion in Adam is unconditional. Inclusion in Christ is also unconditional, but that is another discussion

.
Actually, I think that is the heart of this discussion. As Winman pointed out the scripture very clearly show us WHY we are condemned..."because all sinned." Yes, death ENTERED the world and the effects of SIN took root, but the condemnation is a direct result of our own sinfulness. Consider what James say in chapter 1:

"...each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

What gives birth to death, Archangel? Is it Adam's sin? NO, it is when "his own evil desire"..."give birth to sin" and "when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." This is throughout all of scripture.

God reveals Himself, this is true. How does He do it? God's "eternal power" and "divine nature" have been demonstrated to all in the things that have been made. So, God reveals Himself, in a general way, through creation.

Yes, in such a way that "he is made plain to them," his divine nature and attributes are "clearly seen" and "understood." Correct.

You imply we have to come to know the truth and if we don't we are free from condemnation. This means that those who have never heard the Gospel (the unreached people in, say, Africa) will be saved. Wrong.

No, I said, as scripture does, that God has made himself clearly known and thus mankind is responsible (meaning response able) and "without excuse" for their response to His revelation. A man is saved through faith in the revelation of God they have received. Scripture addresses this if you want to go down that rabbit trail.

General revelation--creation, the universe, the created order, etc--is enough to reveal the magnificence of God to everyone, but it is not enough to save anyone. While the creation tells us of God, it does not tell us of Christ or the Gospel.

Abraham didn't know of Christ and the mystery of his provision, yet he was justified by his faith in what God had told him. Rehab, didn't know of Christ, she simply helped the Israelites escape and because of her faith she was listed among the "great cloud of witnesses" in Heb. 11. All are saved through the provision of Christ's atoning work, but not all fully know of or understand that provision. Instead, they respond to the level of revelation that has been revealed. Lydia, before ever hearing the gospel was called a "God worshipper." Others are referred to as those who fear the Lord...etc. If these were to die prior to hearing and understanding the full work of Christ atoning on the cross would they go to hell? I don't think so.

The issue in Romans 1 is not what God has or has not revealed. The issue is the rejection of God by mankind

. That presumes all mankind who knew the truth, clearly saw and understood His divine attributes actually rejected him, but clearly we see a list of many who did not....(Heb. 11). Now, you assume they didn't reject Him because they were the elect ones who were effectually saved, but that is a presumption you read into the text. I believe they responding in faith and were saved, but they could have done otherwise, just as those who defiled themselves could have done otherwise....that is what makes them "without excuse."

After all "no one seeks after God." Romans one is not drawing a dichotomy between the righteous man and the unrighteous man. There is no "righteous man" for "all have sinned."

No one is Righteous according to the LAW, but keep reading!

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Is no one righteous through faith too? NOOOO! Abraham believed and was declared righteous. Was he perfect? NO. He sinned, but he was STILL declared Righteous. How can it be that NNE is Righteous in one chapter and in the next chapter someone is Righteous? Maybe because Paul is addressing Righteousness according to the LAW and Righteousness according to faith.

So, I'll ask the questions again:

1. Are you arguing that biblical justice must never allow someone to be condemned for something they did not do?

Asked and answered.

2. Are you arguing that man must be given an opportunity to respond or God is acting unjustly?

God can do whatever He wants. He could send us all to hell from the womb if he wanted.

I'm arguing that the bible teaches that God HAS given an opportunity for all to respond and that is why we are all "without excuse." This is not about what God MUST do, it is about what God has told us he has done and will do in order for us to be saved.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Justification by grace has been the theme from Romans 3:24-5:2. Justification has to do with our legal position "in Christ" (Rom. 4:23-25). Romans 5:2 introduces our secure standing in Christ by grace. Our POSITION in Christ is secure in spite of tribulation (5:3-6). Our POSITION in Christ is secure because of God's love; we were the objects of God's love when we were enemies and now how much more that we are now justified ("in Christ") as His children (Rom. 5:7-11). Finally, Paul expounds upon Romans 5:10-11 to demonstrate why the justified are secure in their standing of grace. Our POSITION in Christ is secure because justification is by imputation based upon the representative life of Christ and not ours, upon his obedience for us and not our obedience for him. Paul illustrates by contrasting two representative heads and why all in Christ are secure (Rom. 5:12-22).

The comparison in Romans 5:12-22 has nothing to do with the unjustified. It is simply the exposition of Romans 5:10-11 proving that we are justified by the life of one man Jesus Christ just as we were condemned by the life of one man Adam. Paul is demonstrating why our standing is of grace and why it is secure. Look at Romans 6:1 and you can easily see that the previous argument was to demonstrate why the justified are secure in Christ by grace.

Gentleman, you have to ignore the immediate context both before and after Romans 5:12-22 to argue that "all" in Adam equals "all" in Christ. The context demands that "all" in Christ are no more and no less than all who are JUSTIFIED or POSITIONALLY "in Christ."

The only ones "in Christ" are those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world and that does not include all men without exception.

The only ones "in Christ" are those "created in him" by regeneration and that does not include all men without exception.

The only ones "in Christ" are those positionally in Christ by faith and that does not include all men without exception.

All mankind without exception were "in Adam" but not all men without exception are "in Christ." Adam represented all and only fallen mankind and Christ represented all and only justified mankind. Just as Adam "made" all in him sinners so Christ "made" all in him righteous and both were made so by representation of "one man."

The immediate preceding context in Romans 5:10-11 introduces the reason for his exposition in verses 12-22 and that is to demonstrate why our standing is all of grace because our justification depends solely and only on the obedience of one man.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. - v. 19

In the above verse is stated the true contrast and definition of "many." It has reference to all in Adam who were made sinners in contrast to all in Christ who were made righteous. All in Adam were made sinners but only the justified are made righteous in Christ. Hence, "many" in regard to Christ refer to ALL WHO ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS versus "many" in Adam refer to ALL WHO WERE MADE SINNERS.

The immediate foregoing context in Romans 6:1 demonstrates the foregoing argument in Romans 5:12-22 is applicable only to those "in Christ" positionally further manifested in baptism (Rom. 6:2-5).

 

[AresMan]

And "all" in Christ were once in Adam.

 

[Skandelon]

It's a good thing you guys are here to clarify what otherwise was self evident. It would be way too simple to just read the text and see that God undid with Christ what Adam did in the garden so as to provide a way of salvation for all people. Instead, God's truth is so much more complicated and needs to be parsed, explained, and clarified by the smarter ones among us. God uses the wise to school the simple, or something like that.

Clearly we are not going to convince each other, but for objective readers seeking out these issues...read it for yourself without all the presuppositions and complex dissertations. Just read it...it's really not that difficult to understand. God loves people so much that he sent Christ to provide the means for us all to be reconciled to Him. Be reconciled to God.

 

[Dr. Walter]

It's a good thing you guys are here to clarify what otherwise was self evident. It would be way too simple to just read the text and see that God undid with Christ what Adam did in the garden so as to provide a way of salvation for all people. Instead, God's truth is so much more complicated and needs to be parsed, explained, and clarified by the smarter ones among us. God uses the wise to school the simple, or something like that.

Clearly we are not going to convince each other, but for objective readers seeking out these issues...read it for yourself without all the presuppositions and complex dissertations. Just read it...it's really not that difficult to understand. God loves people so much that he sent Christ to provide the means for us all to be reconciled to Him. Be reconciled to God.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Is the above verse simple enough for you? Who are the "many" made sinners "by one man's disobedience"? Can we find any human being that was not "made" a sinner by Adam's disobedience? No!

Now, who are the "many" that "SHALL BE made righteous"? It is certainly not equal to the "many" who were made sinners is it?

Therefore the "many" represented by Adam are ALL in Adam and the "many" represented by Christ are ALL in Christ because the "many" represented by Christ "SHALL BE made righteous" and all mankind will not be made righteous.

Note the effectual outcome of both are equal. All represented by Adam "were made sinners" without a single exception. Likewise, All represented by Christ "SHALL BE made righteous" without a single exception.

 

[Dr. Walter]

It's a good thing you guys are here to clarify what otherwise was self evident. It would be way too simple to just read the text and see that God undid with Christ what Adam did in the garden so as to provide a way of salvation for all people. Instead, God's truth is so much more complicated and needs to be parsed, explained, and clarified by the smarter ones among us. God uses the wise to school the simple, or something like that.

Clearly we are not going to convince each other, but for objective readers seeking out these issues...read it for yourself without all the presuppositions and complex dissertations. Just read it...it's really not that difficult to understand. God loves people so much that he sent Christ to provide the means for us all to be reconciled to Him. Be reconciled to God.

The only reason the expanded explanation was to provide the immediate context before and after Romans 5:12-21. One primary reason you do not interpret this text correctly is because either you do not understand the context before and after or you do not care. The immediate context before and after has one design and that is to show why those who stand in grace in Romans 5:2 are secure in spite of tribulation (5:3-5) in spite of proper responses in our life (5:6-9) because our security is not based upon any response in our life but wholly upon Christ's response to God by his life we are "made righteous" just as we were "made sinners" based wholly upon Adam's response to God in his life rather than by any actions in our life - we came into this world "made sinners" (Rom. 5:10-21).

Thus everything is brought to a conclusion in Romans 5:19 where Adam's life action "made sinners" of every single one he represented just as Christ's life action "made righteous" every single one he represented. This is why the warning in Romans 6:1 that such security in grace does not promote sin.

Only by ignoring the context can you apply "many" in Christ to be equal to "many" represented in Adam.

 

[Skandelon]

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Is the above verse simple enough for you?

Yes, it is quite simple, especially in the context of the other verses all around it.

Who are the "many" made sinners "by one man's disobedience"? Can we find any human being that was not "made" a sinner by Adam's disobedience? No!

As I explained earlier, both imputations are conditional. Condemnation is conditioned on the fact that the individual sins just as salvation is conditioned upon the individuals faith. I explained it fully before and discussed it with Archangel so I won't go through it all again, you can go back and read it.

Now, who are the "many" that "SHALL BE made righteous"? It is certainly not equal to the "many" who were made sinners is it?

Yes, if the imputation is conditional it is the same, which would be consistent with the verse 18 which clearly states: "...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

It's a very simple equation:
Adam introduced sin, death and condemnation = We are condemned if we sin
Jesus introduced atonement, righteousness and salvation = We are saved if we believe in Him

Simple.

You don't have to make it so complicated.

 

[Skandelon]

The only reason the expanded explanation was to provide the immediate context before and after Romans 5:12-21. One primary reason you do not interpret this text correctly is because either you do not understand the context before and after or you do not care.

First, I was Calvinistic for a very long time so I fully understand your perspective. In fact I wrote papers on the subject defending the very view you are espousing now. I get it. So, according to you that must mean I don't care? It couldn't possibly mean that I disagree with your interpretation and have a valid view of my own?

Only by ignoring the context can you apply "many" in Christ to be equal to "many" represented in Adam.

Not a problem if the imputation is conditional, which scripture clearly shows it is.

"death came to all men, because all sinned" <--- Conditional

"For with the heart men believe and obtain righteousness, and with the mouth they make confession and obtain salvation. <--- Conditional

 

[Eagle]

You cannot reach the conclusion(s) you have reached by reading Romans 1 without a great amount of reading into things. You say:

God reveals Himself, this is true. How does He do it? God's "eternal power" and "divine nature" have been demonstrated to all in the things that have been made. So, God reveals Himself, in a general way, through creation.

You imply we have to come to know the truth and if we don't we are free from condemnation. This means that those who have never heard the Gospel (the unreached people in, say, Africa) will be saved. Wrong.

General revelation--creation, the universe, the created order, etc--is enough to reveal the magnificence of God to everyone, but it is not enough to save anyone. While the creation tells us of God, it does not tell us of Christ or the Gospel.

The issue in Romans 1 is not what God has or has not revealed. The issue is the rejection of God by mankind. After all "no one seeks after God." Romans one is not drawing a dichotomy between the righteous man and the unrighteous man. There is no "righteous man" for "all have sinned."

The Archangel

You add way too much to this passage - along with your pre-suppositions. It does not state here, nor have I seen anyone else state here, that this 'general revelation' as you call it - is sufficient to save anyone. It is precisely what it says it is - the basis for condemnation - but not the means of salvation. They are different.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Firstly, v.16 tells us that the "gospel of Christ" is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Not 'general revelation' as you call it, and imply is the means.

Secondly, we see the progression of how God reveals His righteousness (the power of salvation through the gospel of Christ) -- that it is from faith to faith. This indicates how we all grow spiritually, one step at a time, and from belief to belief or "faith to faith."

Thirdly, we see that God's wrath is revealed, and brought down upon/against those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness" - which means they know truth. "Because" is how v. 19 starts out, "that which may be known of God is manifest in them." God has shown them about Himself - including the "clearly seen" and "understood" "invisible things of Him" -- "even his eternal power and Godhead."

Fourthly, therefore (due to the third point) "they are without excuse."

I don't see how the revelations that give us opportunity to progress from faith to faith, can't be brought about, or at least helped out by, the work of the Holy spirit.

The third and fourth points are what condemns men to hell. Yes, you could also frame/couch this in terms of rejecting Christ, by first rejecting the revelations that would have led the condemned to learn of and believe in Christ from "faith to faith." Yes, even deepest, darkest jungle. However, it is not necessary. Christ is the ONLY means of salvation, but any and all who do not hear of or learn about Christ through their personal rejection of all they have been shown by God about Himself -- leaves them with "NO EXCUSE." Not the excuse that they never knew about Jesus - or any other excuse.

This is what Romans 1 teaches us, in it's plain sense - with no additions or pre-suppositions. Note that this does not require a "seeking after God" either. It is what He has chosen to reveal to ALL, and to hold ALL accountable for.

We probably know from our own empirical, personal experience and remembrance (unless saved at a very young age) that we have experienced some of these same revelations from creation. We know it to be true in our own lives. However, this is of course moot - because God says it is this way with all of us - whether we ever remember experiencing it or not.

Of course, those who reject these truths of God WILL remember at the judgment - and will bow their knees, call Jesus Lord, and offer no excuse - for they will know they have none.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If you can show me one statement in THIS CONTEXT that demonstrates any human being was "made" a sinner or "made" righteous other than by the act of either Adam or Christ and I will certainly consider it. Show me one word, in THIS CONTEXT that states that either fallen men were CONDITIONALLY "made sinners" or CONDITIONALLY "made righteous" and I will certainly consider it.

The argument here is repeatedly stated that it is "by one man's" obedience or disobedience many were "made" what they are without their consent, without their actions, without their physical presence and without consideration of anything they say, do or even think.

Yes, it is quite simple, especially in the context of the other verses all around it.

As I explained earlier, both imputations are conditional. Condemnation is conditioned on the fact that the individual sins just as salvation is conditioned upon the individuals faith. I explained it fully before and discussed it with Archangel so I won't go through it all again, you can go back and read it.


Yes, if the imputation is conditional it is the same, which would be consistent with the verse 18 which clearly states: "...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

It's a very simple equation:
Adam introduced sin, death and condemnation = We are condemned if we sin
Jesus introduced atonement, righteousness and salvation = We are saved if we believe in Him

Simple.

You don't have to make it so complicated.

 

[Skandelon]

If you can show me one statement in THIS CONTEXT that demonstrates any human being was "made" a sinner or "made" righteous other than by the act of either Adam or Christ and I will certainly consider it. Show me one word, in THIS CONTEXT that states that either fallen men were CONDITIONALLY "made sinners" or CONDITIONALLY "made righteous" and I will certainly consider it.

I didn't say they were "made a sinner," I said that death or condemnation was imputed through their sin. "death came to men, because all sinned."

And as James explains it: "14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

So, while sin and the nature of sin entered the world through Adam, the actual punishment (death/condemnation) is imputed through the act of sinning...i.e. "gives birth to death."

 

[Dr. Walter]

I didn't say they were "made a sinner," I said that death or condemnation was imputed through their sin. "death came to men, because all sinned."

And as James explains it: "14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

So, while sin and the nature of sin entered the world through Adam, the actual punishment (death/condemnation) is imputed through the act of sinning...i.e. "gives birth to death."

Romans 5:12-21 has nothing to do whatsoever with Post-physical birth actions or decisions by those defined as "many."

You are attempting to use contexts that deal with POST-birth individual and conditional decisions/actions with their consequences and insert it into this context which does not deal with POST-birth or Individual decisions and conditional consquences.

This context deals with PRE-birth decisions and actions by only TWO men as REPRESENTATIVES of "many" whereby the many are "MADE" to be something without regard to any conditional consequences determined by their own individual presence, decisions or actions.

Adam's representative decision and action occurred in the garden before Cain was physically born and that representative descision and action "MADE" Cain a sinner BY NATURE in his birth, spiritually dead in sin , apart from any conditions, decisions or actions made by Cain. All future personal and conditional decisions and actions manifest that nature rather than produced that nature.

Likewise, Christ's representative obedience occurred 2000 years before you were spiritually born and that representative obedience "MADE" you righteous by nature in your spiritual birth, apart from any conditions, decisions or actions you made (Jn. 1;13). All future personal and conditional decisions and actions manifested that nature rather than produced that nature.


For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The decision and actions of these two men alone "MADE" those they represented EFFECTUALLY to be either "sinners" by nature at physical birth or "righteous" by nature at new birth.

 

[webdog]

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The decision and actions of these two men alone "MADE" those they represented EFFECTUALLY to be either "sinners" by nature at physical birth or "righteous" by nature at new birth.

A fatal flaw in this reasoning: If all are born sinners due to Adam's sin, the "so as" would have to mean that when Christ died, every human created were made righteous as well. That is universalism.

 

[Dr. Walter]

A fatal flaw in this reasoning: If all are born sinners due to Adam's sin, the "so as" would have to mean that when Christ died, every human created were made righteous as well. That is universalism.

No fatal flaw at all. "the many" who were made "sinners" in Adam are not the "many" who are made "righteous" in Christ. Adam represented all who are "in Adam" and Christ represented all who are "in Christ."

The only ones "in Christ" were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world -Eph. 1:4 but not all "in Adam" were chosen in Christ then.

The only ones "in Christ" were "created in Christ Jesus" at new birth - Eph. 2:10 - not all who are "in Adam" are created in Christ Jesus.

The only ones "in Christ" were justified by faith "in him" at conversion - Gal. 3:27 - not all who are "in Adam" are justified by faith in him.

Finally, the immediate context has for its object to prove that all who are positionally (justification) "in Christ" by faith are secure in their standing by grace (Rom. 5:2). Tribulation works to confirm their standing (5:3-5). The love of God works to secure their standing. If Christ died for them while enemies how much more will he secure their standing now justified (Rom. 5:6-9). If His death secured their standing how much more His life (Rom. 5:10-11) having received the atonement.

Romans 5:12-21 is to demonstrate that their standing in grace is secured by the REPRESENTATIVE LIFE of Christ alone without anything to do with their own life, decisions or actions or conditions. The "many" Christ represented are those "in Christ" in addition to having been "in Adam." However, the "many" in Adam or represented by Adam are not all represented by Christ. Only those that "shall be made righteous" by Christ are the "many" represented by Christ.

Romans 6:1-2 demonstrate that the foregoing context (Rom. 5:12-21) was to demonstrate that the elect's standing in grace is secure but is not to be abused. Hence, what is begun in Romans 5:1-2 is concluded in Romans 6:1 demonstrating that what those represented by Christ lost in Adam they gained "much more" in Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

You add way too much to this passage - along with your pre-suppositions. It does not state here, nor have I seen anyone else state here, that this 'general revelation' as you call it - is sufficient to save anyone. It is precisely what it says it is - the basis for condemnation - but not the means of salvation. They are different.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Firstly, v.16 tells us that the "gospel of Christ" is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Not 'general revelation' as you call it, and imply is the means.

Secondly, we see the progression of how God reveals His righteousness (the power of salvation through the gospel of Christ) -- that it is from faith to faith. This indicates how we all grow spiritually, one step at a time, and from belief to belief or "faith to faith."

Thirdly, we see that God's wrath is revealed, and brought down upon/against those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness" - which means they know truth. "Because" is how v. 19 starts out, "that which may be known of God is manifest in them." God has shown them about Himself - including the "clearly seen" and "understood" "invisible things of Him" -- "even his eternal power and Godhead."

Fourthly, therefore (due to the third point) "they are without excuse."

I don't see how the revelations that give us opportunity to progress from faith to faith, can't be brought about, or at least helped out by, the work of the Holy spirit.

The third and fourth points are what condemns men to hell. Yes, you could also frame/couch this in terms of rejecting Christ, by first rejecting the revelations that would have led the condemned to learn of and believe in Christ from "faith to faith." Yes, even deepest, darkest jungle. However, it is not necessary. Christ is the ONLY means of salvation, but any and all who do not hear of or learn about Christ through their personal rejection of all they have been shown by God about Himself -- leaves them with "NO EXCUSE." Not the excuse that they never knew about Jesus - or any other excuse.

This is what Romans 1 teaches us, in it's plain sense - with no additions or pre-suppositions. Note that this does not require a "seeking after God" either. It is what He has chosen to reveal to ALL, and to hold ALL accountable for.

We probably know from our own empirical, personal experience and remembrance (unless saved at a very young age) that we have experienced some of these same revelations from creation. We know it to be true in our own lives. However, this is of course moot - because God says it is this way with all of us - whether we ever remember experiencing it or not.

Of course, those who reject these truths of God WILL remember at the judgment - and will bow their knees, call Jesus Lord, and offer no excuse - for they will know they have none.

Eagle,

I must confess to you that I am at a loss as to what you are arguing against. I do not believe "general revelation" is sufficient to save anyone, it is, however, sufficient to condemn everyone.

So...again...I'm at a loss. Can you please clarify for me what it is you took issue with? Perhaps I was not clear? If so, please point that out to me.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

Dr. Walter, you make such "matter of fact" statements as if they are true simply because you say they are true. With all due respect, please provide a defense for your claims. I quoted to you several verses specifically showing that "death/condemnation" was contingent on one actually sinning and you dismiss them as simply not applying to our discussion with regard to Romans 5 (even though one of the verses was from Romans 5.)

Why not explain why James 1 and the other texts don't support my premise? If they don't mean what they clearly say... ("sin gives birth to death" or "all died because all sinned" etc) then explain what they really mean and why that doesn't apply to your view of federal headship. Otherwise this just becomes a complicated and wordy game of "nuh-hu" --- "uh-huh," like when children bicker.

You did the same with the Acts 28/John 12:39-41 passages I had presented in a previous argument. You simply dismiss them without giving explanation as to the real intent and make dogmatic restatements of the Calvinistic position as if they cannot be questioned. That really is not a discussion or a debate. That is you presuming to be the infallible teacher and us the lowly uneducated students. Would it help you to treat my argument more seriously if I put my DR in front of my signature?

This whole discussion about Federal Headship involves the doctrine of IMPUTATION. The Christian teaching that righteousness is imputed through faith. Christ's accomplishment of atonement is applied only to those who believe. Salvation is conditioned upon faith. Righteousness is IMPUTED through faith, period. That is a widely held and accepted biblical teaching.

In the same way, CONDEMNATION or DEATH is imputed through sin. The "accomplishment" of disobedience and the subsequent judgement is applied to all who sin. This is why Jesus, though fully man, could avoid the imputation of death...HE NEVER SINNED.

I hesitate to go further for fear I'll open another can of worms, but I would go so far to say that Christ's death for the sin of world completely satisfied God's wrath in regard to mankind's sin (breaking of the law). The reason mankind is going to be condemned at judgement is because of unbelief, not because they broke the rules. The Law has been fulfilled and the wrath appeased, the only condition for salvation is faith and thus the only reason a person won't enter heaven is because of unbelief. Here are texts that support this view:

2 Thess. 2:10: "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

Jesus said, "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (Jn 12)

What condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE! What does He say? The "very word which I spoke will condemn him." What is that "word?" The gospel truth!

"For I did not come to judge the world" based upon the "righteousness that comes through the law"....or Adam's imputed sin. But instead there is a "new righteousness being revealed" (Rm 3) which is not from LAW but through faith...this is what Christ has revealed as the "WORD." It is by that "NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS" that "WORD OF CHRIST" by which we are judged. If someone is condemned, he is condemned for his UNBELIEF (Rm 11:23; Heb 3 etc)

19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Cor. 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

2 Peter 2:1:They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign LORD who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.