Justification By Faith

[Charlie24]

God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan, not according to the man-made nonsense of universalism.

He makes the decision of who believes when He credits the faith of some as righteousness.

People make autonomous choices within the purview allowed by God. If our heart has been hardened, we are unable to choose to believe.

The gift of faith is a fiction, but the gracious gift of credited faith is the main theme of Romans Chapter 4.

We finally found some common ground on the "nonsense of universalism." Praise the Lord!!!

It's impossible, Van, for God to desire all people to be saved and then choose who will believe dooming the rest. You can't have it both ways!

If Calvin was correct with predestination, God choosing some automatically dooms the rest with no chance of eternal life.

 

[Silverhair]

Christ is quoted as saying, "it is my Father's will that none should perish."

If God made the decision of who believes no one would be cast into the lake of fire.

Obviously man chooses his own way! What we call free will.

God gives the faith to all to believe when they hear the Gospel, but man must choose Christ or reject Him.

"God gives the faith to all to believe when they hear the Gospel, but man must choose Christ or reject Him."

That comment is a bit odd. If God gives them faith then it is God that is doing the believing not the person.

So since, as you say, God has to give them faith then He not only decides who is saved but also who is doom to hell. But the bible indicates that man is responsible for choosing to trust in or rejecting Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

"God gives the faith to all to believe when they hear the Gospel, but man must choose Christ or reject Him."

That comment is a bit odd. If God gives them faith then it is God that is doing the believing not the person.

So since, as you say, God has to give them faith then He not only decides who is saved but also who is doom to hell. But the bible indicates that man is responsible for choosing to trust in or rejecting Christ.

Paul said that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." In other words, faith is part of the package offered when a person hears the Gospel message.

Then man must choose to accept that Gospel or reject it. The faith to believe that Gospel is there, provided by the Holy Spirit with the conviction of sin.

 

[Silverhair]

Paul said that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." In other words, faith is part of the package offered when a person hears the Gospel message.

Then man must choose to accept that Gospel or reject it. The faith to believe that Gospel is there, provided by the Holy Spirit with the conviction of sin.

Since God desires all to be saved then why does the Holy Spirit not just give everyone that faith? Because faith is not given. The person has to make the choice of whether to trust the gospel message or not, that is what faith is. To put it simply it is confidence or trust in a person, thing or message.

We made trust choices all the time based on the facts we have presented to us.

Even the verse you quoted shows that man must make the choice. Many people will hear the gospel message and still reject it. But how is that possible if faith is part of the package as you say?

 

[Charlie24]

Since God desires all to be saved then why does the Holy Spirit not just give everyone that faith? Because faith is not given. The person has to make the choice of whether to trust the gospel message or not, that is what faith is. To put it simply it is confidence or trust in a person, thing or message.

We made trust choices all the time based on the facts we have presented to us.

Even the verse you quoted shows that man must make the choice. Many people will hear the gospel message and still reject it. But how is that possible if faith is part of the package as you say?

God made man a free moral agent, God forces nothing on man. He may push you to your limits to persuade, as he did Jonah, but still the final decision is yours not God's.

When a lost person hears the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, we all know that. How you react to that conviction will determine if you accept or reject Christ. If you see that you are indeed as sinner in need of a Saviour, that is a positive response that the Holy Spirit will indeed accept, and He will provide the faith needed to accept Christ as the Saviour you need.

 

[Silverhair]

God made man a free moral agent, God forces nothing on man. He may push you to your limits to persuade, as he did Jonah, but still the final decision is yours not God's.

When a lost person hears the Gospel, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, we all know that. How you react to that conviction will determine if you accept or reject Christ. If you see that you are indeed as sinner in need of a Saviour, that is a positive response that the Holy Spirit will indeed accept, and He will provide the faith needed to accept Christ as the Saviour you need.

Faith is the response of the person to the information/promptings of God. We do not receive trust/faith we have trust/faith in God.

It is because we trust/have faith in Christ as our saviour that God saves us.

 

[Van]

We finally found some common ground on the "nonsense of universalism." Praise the Lord!!!

It's impossible, Van, for God to desire all people to be saved and then choose who will believe dooming the rest. You can't have it both ways!

If Calvin was correct with predestination, God choosing some automatically dooms the rest with no chance of eternal life.

Just claiming something is impossible does not make it impossible. Say I am in a race, and I desire to finish first. Does this mean I would pack a gun and shoot those in front of me so I will finish first? Nope. To desire something, does not mean "by any means" but can mean, by means consistent with my just and merciful character. God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan which includes choosing those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

There is no support anywhere in scripture for the false doctrine of Calvinist Predestination.

Biblical doctrine = Gospel provides the opportunity for reconciliation through credited faith.
False doctrine = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do about it for yourself or your loved ones.

Until you acknowledge Romans 4 teaches God will credit the faith of those He decides believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, it is pointless to continue.

 

[Charlie24]

Faith is the response of the person to the information/promptings of God. We do not receive trust/faith we have trust/faith in God.

It is because we trust/have faith in Christ as our saviour that God saves us.

How can a totally depraved man, according to Paul, have any faith other than what's given him at the time he responds positively to the Gospel call of repentance?

 

[Silverhair]

How can a totally depraved man, according to Paul, have any faith other than what's given him at the time he responds positively to the Gospel call of repentance?

By your logic we could never make any choices to trust in any information that we are presented.

Depraved does not mean unable to think. In fact as we see in scripture God expects us depraved individuals to seek Him and trust in Him.

Christ told us to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Charlie24]

Just claiming something is impossible does not make it impossible. Say I am in a race, and I desire to finish first. Does this mean I would pack a gun and shoot those in front of me so I will finish first? Nope. To desire something, does not mean "by any means" but can mean, by means consistent with my just and merciful character. God desires all people to be saved according to His redemption plan which includes choosing those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

There is no support anywhere in scripture for the false doctrine of Calvinist Predestination.

Biblical doctrine = Gospel provides the opportunity for reconciliation through credited faith.
False doctrine = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do about it for yourself or your loved ones.

Until you acknowledge Romans 4 teaches God will credit the faith of those He decides believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, it is pointless to continue.

I certainly agree it's pointless for us to continue, Van.

God bless, my Brother!

 

[Charlie24]

By your logic we could never make any choices to trust in any information that we are presented.

Depraved does not mean unable to think. In fact as we see in scripture God expects us depraved individuals to seek Him and trust in Him.

Christ told us to repent and believe the gospel.

That's the point of total depravity. Did not Isaiah say and later Paul echoed his words, "there is none righteous, there is none that seek after God."

All of us were totally depraved with no way of searching out for God's righteousness.

That's why God must first search out for us with His Gospel.

 

[Van]

Justification refers to being made righteous from a state of unholiness. This occurs when a person is transferred into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration. God chooses to transfer the person into Christ (referred to a sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.

Romans 5:16 teaches that the gracious gift, from many transgressions, into righteousness, arose from the sacrifice on the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 refers to the gracious gift as the "justification of life." When we were in a sinful state, we were spiritually dead, separated from God, owing a debt we could not pay because all our acts of righteousness were as filthy rags to God. However, the gracious gift, provided with the one act of righteousness by Christ Jesus, presents the means of justification to all people.

Romans 5:2 teaches we obtain access to this gracious gift by faith.

When we were justified, we were made alive, when we were made alive, we were justified. We can refer to our spiritual reconciliation as our justification to life (as we went from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive, together with Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

I certainly agree it's pointless for us to continue, Van.

God bless, my Brother!

Van has to then rip out Romans Chapter 8 from His bible

 

[JesusFan]

Justification refers to being made righteous from a state of unholiness. This occurs when a person is transferred into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration. God chooses to transfer the person into Christ (referred to a sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.

Romans 5:16 teaches that the gracious gift, from many transgressions, into righteousness, arose from the sacrifice on the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 refers to the gracious gift as the "justification of life." When we were in a sinful state, we were spiritually dead, separated from God, owing a debt we could not pay because all our acts of righteousness were as filthy rags to God. However, the gracious gift, provided with the one act of righteousness by Christ Jesus, presents the means of justification to all people.

Romans 5:2 teaches we obtain access to this gracious gift by faith.

When we were justified, we were made alive, when we were made alive, we were justified. We can refer to our spiritual reconciliation as our justification to life (as we went from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive, together with Christ.

The basis was us being elected and chosen in Christ by determined will of God, not upon our "right decision and choice"

 

[Charlie24]

The basis was us being elected and chosen in Christ by determined will of God, not upon our "right decision and choice"

Van and I have decided to agree to disagree. I'll let it go at that.

But I'm open for any other conversation on this thread.

 

[JesusFan]

Van and I have decided to agree to disagree. I'll let it go at that.

But I'm open for any other conversation on this thread.

Van and some others really do not see just how totally dead in our sins and natures we who were once in Adam really were

 

[Charlie24]

Van and some others really do not see just how totally dead in our sins and natures we who were once in Adam really were

Yes, that speaks volumes in explanation to what we're seeing on these forums.

 

[Van]

Lets see, the one that has ripped Romans Chapter 4 out of his bible, now charges me with ripping Chapter 8 out of mine.

However, I agree with every word of scripture, including every word of Romans Chapter 8.

Also I agree with Luke 13:24 which says many will strive to find the narrow door but will not find it. So being spiritually dead does not preclude seeking eternal life with God.

God desires all people to be saved, according to His redemption plan, not according to the man-made nonsense of universalism.

He makes the decision of who believes when He credits the faith of some as righteousness.

People make autonomous choices within the purview allowed by God. If our heart has been hardened, we are unable to choose to believe.

The gift of faith is a fiction, but the gracious gift of credited faith is the main theme of Romans Chapter 4.

 

[Van]

Justification refers to being made righteous from a state of unholiness. This occurs when a person is transferred into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration. God chooses to transfer the person into Christ (referred to a sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.

Romans 5:16 teaches that the gracious gift, from many transgressions, into righteousness, arose from the sacrifice on the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 refers to the gracious gift as the "justification of life." When we were in a sinful state, we were spiritually dead, separated from God, owing a debt we could not pay because all our acts of righteousness were as filthy rags to God. However, the gracious gift, provided with the one act of righteousness by Christ Jesus, presents the means of justification to all people.

Romans 5:2 teaches we obtain access to this gracious gift by faith.

When we were justified, we were made alive, when we were made alive, we were justified.

We can refer to our spiritual reconciliation as our justification to life (as we went from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive, together with Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

Justification refers to being made righteous from a state of unholiness. This occurs when a person is transferred into Christ and undergoes the washing of regeneration. God chooses to transfer the person into Christ (referred to a sanctification by the Spirit) on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.

Romans 5:16 teaches that the gracious gift, from many transgressions, into righteousness, arose from the sacrifice on the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:18 refers to the gracious gift as the "justification of life." When we were in a sinful state, we were spiritually dead, separated from God, owing a debt we could not pay because all our acts of righteousness were as filthy rags to God. However, the gracious gift, provided with the one act of righteousness by Christ Jesus, presents the means of justification to all people.

Romans 5:2 teaches we obtain access to this gracious gift by faith.

When we were justified, we were made alive, when we were made alive, we were justified.

We can refer to our spiritual reconciliation as our justification to life (as we went from being spiritually dead to being spiritually alive, together with Christ.

And once saved and justified, was that faith inherit within ourselves?