Justification - Rome versus Baptists

[The Biblicist]

It all in how you say it. Yes you called it the source of sanctification identifying it with the progressive aspects which lead me to believe you didn't hold a singular time and point of occurance.

I would repeat the very same words over again without fear of any contradicton of anything I have said or am saying. You simply did not carefully read what I said.

Actually according to Paul glorification is progressive as we move from glory to glory. However, to be forensic it takes two aspects one is legal the other is point in time. You certainly hold to the point and time aspect.

2 Cor. 3:18 has nothing to do with glorification of THE BODY but with progressive sanctificaiton of the SOUL! Neither is time involved with any definition of the term forensic.

two things faith is never abstract its a reality. It either is or is not. and It is clear from that passage in the catachism that certainly the view is scriptural. in fact if you reject this position which part don't you believe? Is it that or that it is Maybe you believe that faith is like justification in that it is an imputation or a declarative statement?

Read Hebrews 11:1 and you will see faith cannot exist apart from an object of "hope" that is embraced as the "substance" of that hope! Your Catholic definition demands that God first give something called "faith" which has no defined "hope" and thus no "substance" on which that hope can be defined. Your kind of faith, especially in regard to justification simply does not exist. The faith that God gives is inseparable from a defined "hope" which is rooted in real "substance" that gives that "hope" its definition.

are you suggesting that there are two sanctifications (as you have) or that by necessity of grammer the same sanctification can be referred to in two ways? It seems you are arguing the former. I argue the latter. Thus I have been sanctified, I continue to be sanctified and I will be sanctified. There are not two sanctification but only one and since it progresses to speak of it at any particular moment another tense must be used.

For simplicity let me simply state there is an objective sanctification versus a subjective sanctification. The former has to do with the redemptive purpose of God whereas the latter has to do with your personage. In both cases the term "sanctification" simply means "set apart" unto or by something.

surely but I can work for it in that direction. I think you just wait for it to happen as it does so of its own volition by your argument.

It is at the resurrection! It is something you have no power, no participation in effecting whatsoever. It is an soveriegn act of God PRIOR TO the judgement seat and therefore your works are not even remotely connected to it.

Yes it is. As this passage refers to being born from above.

but you ignore Jesus requirement to stay in him.

What passage in scripture explicitly states that the continuance of NEW BIRTH conditioned upon a requirement that you remain "in him"! Don't give me passages that deal with progressive sanctification because but with passages that explicitly state "born again" or "regeneration" or synonyms for that work of God.

Ah... That is the Catholic Position.

No, that is the Catholic WORDING but nowhere even close to the Biblical MEANING. The Catholic MEANING makes regeneration inclusive of sanctification and both progressive. So we are not even close to each other except SIMILAR LANGUAGE!

Let me clarify what I see in that passage. I don't see "crowns" in it nor do I see position in it. What I do see is that in verse 14 I see a reward that I view is more Christlikeness in our eternal life and verse 15 seems to be sayiing that if all of our works are destroyed yet we may yet recieve eternal life - as one excaping through a flame.

However, Paul speculates the complete absence of what you define as "Christlikeness" but yet the soul is still "saved." The metaphorical "wood, hay stubble....gold, silver and precious stones" defined literally as "works" are brought under metaphorical fire defined literally as judgement or the judgement of works both good and bad. The works have nothing to do with the soul being saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

The difference between your thinking and mine is that its not optional for those catholics not immediately killed. It is optional for your theology for not only those who are immediately killed but those who jouney through this land. According to you there is nothing that holds a believer to sanctification apart from a guilty feeling. but that's about it. A believer under your view only needs to believe and no matter what they do with their lives for as long as they have it (even habitual sin or sanctification) they have the option to or not to live sanctified lives. And thats where your house of cards crumble.

Christians are FULLY justified before God by basis of the Cross of Christ, ONLY thing required by god for that to haoppen is one to receive jesus and that provosion for his sins by faith!

Once saved, remade anew, THEN we start road to becoming more and more like jesus, by the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Gods desire is that ALL His children be daily growing into image of Christ, but we atill are allowed to chose to obey/disobey...

Those choices we make affect how close to God will and plans we walk in this life, but at death, we shall immediatly go into presense of God, and long for time when our physical bodies shall be reunited and be glorified, becoming as jesus now is in regards to our spiritual maturity and perfection!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Christians are FULLY justified before God by basis of the Cross of Christ, ONLY thing required by god for that to haoppen is one to receive jesus and that provosion for his sins by faith!

But you are saying your Justification doesn't lead to sanctification because you are only declared righteous not righteous indeed. Which follows Luther's dung covered in snow analogy which means there is no real internal change no real justification because its only a legal declaration.

Once saved, remade anew

are you really remade anew if you're not living a sanctified life?

THEN we start road to becoming more and more like jesus, by the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Gods desire is that ALL His children be daily growing into image of Christ, but we atill are allowed to chose to obey/disobey...

Which basically means that sanctification is optional. There is no real need for sanctification. Admittedly, you said a saved person can chose to disobey ie live like the devil and commit sin whenever, however, and in any condition they want but are secure in their salvation. They can even be unrepentant of it and still be saved. Because of their legal declaration of righteous which isn't a righteousness in fact but only a legal fiction. The worst a saved person has to deal with when they disobey is a guilty feeling and lack of crowns to throw before the feet of Jesus because of the new spirit they are
given makes them feel bad. I don't know about you but that kind of soteriology tickles my ears. All I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins make a declarative statement of belief and I can fornicate, commit adultry, murder, etc... to my hearts content. Feel bad mumble some prayers to God to forgive my behavior and look forward to the afterlife because then I will be glorified just without crowns but hey I'm not in hell. Makes life pretty easy. There is no real requirement to lay down my life in self sacrifice. There is no real requirement to deny myself, pick up my cross, and follow Jesus because I believe and its heart felt.

Those choices we make affect how close to God will and plans we walk in this life, but at death, we shall immediatly go into presense of God, and long for time when our physical bodies shall be reunited and be glorified, becoming as jesus now is in regards to our spiritual maturity and perfection!

So when I go into the presense of God after being saved I might not be as close as someone else but hey there's the rest of eternity to do that. I don't have to give any sin I may enjoy in this life! Cool.

 

[Yeshua1]

But you are saying your Justification doesn't lead to sanctification because you are only declared righteous not righteous indeed. Which follows Luther's dung covered in snow analogy which means there is no real internal change no real justification because its only a legal declaration.

God gives me a new nature AND His Holy Spirit, who can ONLY dwell in a clean vessal, and the blood of Christ has provided means for God to declare me righteous AND to give me his Spirit as the proof in his eyes now am!

justification/salvation one time one stage event, while we progress in becoming more like Christ, and that can be done quicker/slower, dependanr upon IF I allow the Holy Sprit to be in control over me or chose to "do my own thing!"

are you really remade anew if you're not living a sanctified life?

2 seperate things, as one can be living for a time badly, but aleways will find way abck to God, as ALL of us have differing growth spurts in Christian

Which basically means that sanctification is optional. There is no real need for sanctification. Admittedly, you said a saved person can chose to disobey ie live like the devil and commit sin whenever, however, and in any condition they want but are secure in their salvation. They can even be unrepentant of it and still be saved. Because of their legal declaration of righteous which isn't a righteousness in fact but only a legal fiction. The worst a saved person has to deal with when they disobey is a guilty feeling and lack of crowns to throw before the feet of Jesus because of the new spirit they are
given makes them feel bad. I don't know about you but that kind of soteriology tickles my ears. All I have to do is believe that Jesus died for my sins make a declarative statement of belief and I can fornicate, commit adultry, murder, etc... to my hearts content. Feel bad mumble some prayers to God to forgive my behavior and look forward to the afterlife because then I will be glorified just without crowns but hey I'm not in hell. Makes life pretty easy. There is no real requirement to lay down my life in self sacrifice. There is no real requirement to deny myself, pick up my cross, and follow Jesus because I believe and its heart felt.

you misunderstood what I said here! saying that a Christian desire will be to live for God now, as has a new nature AND Holy spirit, but unless we set ourselves to allow the Spirit to be in control of us, can and still do sin at times! No sinless perfection, but a saint will confess/repent of their sins, and want to get back in their race!

hebrews asks us to put/lay aside our "besitting sins" so thereindeed are some caught up in their sins by choice, which will bring the chaistesmaent of/from God...

So when I go into the presense of God after being saved I might not be as close as someone else but hey there's the rest of eternity to do that. I don't have to give any sin I may enjoy in this life! Cool.

You think like the heretics/false christians who accused paul of teaching "saved by grace of God in order to keep livinglike the devil"

God Forbid! As we can chooose to do wrong still, but that is NOT who we now are in Christ, and would out usunder bondage jesus died toset us free from!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You think like the heretics/false christians who accused paul of teaching "saved by grace of God in order to keep livinglike the devil"

God Forbid! As we can chooose to do wrong still, but that is NOT who we now are in Christ, and would out usunder bondage jesus died toset us free from!

I actually don't. I don't believe sanctification is optional but required by Jesus statement "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect". There is nothing in your soteriological statement that suggest sanctification is commanded but an optional statement. You even state that the book of hebrews asks us to live sanctified lives. Which means we can take it or leave it. The difference about those men and myself is that they werent accusing Paul of anything they were living in sin to which Paul says GOD forbid which is strong language. It isn't a request but a requirement.

 

[The Biblicist]

You think like the heretics/false christians who accused paul of teaching "saved by grace of God in order to keep livinglike the devil"

God Forbid! As we can chooose to do wrong still, but that is NOT who we now are in Christ, and would out usunder bondage jesus died toset us free from!

The simply reply to Thinkingstuff is that there is no such thing as a justified man who is not also a regenerated man and good works or progressive sanctification stems from regeneration not justification. This is what Paul is teaching in Romans 6-8 when asked if what he taught should lead him to sin (Rom. 6:1) and he said "God forbid." He then went on to illustrate that in water baptism the believer identifies with both the death of Christ to sin and his resurrection life or a life of holiness. There is no such thing as a justified man who is not a regenerated man and progressive sanctification (good works) is derived from the new nature God has created in you by regeneration (Eph. 2:10 "For we are HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works"). It is just that simple.

However, his position confuses justification with sanctification when sanctification has its roots/source in regeneration.