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Justification
- Thread starter 2 Timothy2:1-4
- Start date
Amy.G said:Now that last statement is funny!
So, the only ones to suffer the 1000 years of torment are the ones who died with unconfessed sins or even one sin.
Is adding to scripture a sin? Because the KSers have a LOT of paying to do.
J. Jump said:But the goat is saved person that will receive his proper reward for his undesired actions. The judgment of the sheep and the goats is a judgment of works. The sheep go to the kingdom because they "did" the right things and the goats do not because they did not "do" the right things.
That has got to be one of the most slanderous and preposterous things that I have ever read that someone stated about scripture.
Stick around and you'll hear a lot more from the ME crowd.Cutter said:That has got to be one of the most slanderous and preposterous things that I have ever read that someone stated about scripture.
Cutter said:That has got to be one of the most slanderous and preposterous things that I have ever read that someone stated about scripture.
Yup. They're saying that this is what is in store for Christians with some undefined amount of unconfessed sin or disobedience:
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
And this is how the saved goats are separated from the saved sheep:
46 And these [goats, saved] will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous [sheep] into eternal life.”
That's the "gospel" of the kingdom, according to KS.
According to this passage in matthew these are things that will happen when Jesus ascends to his throne- Matt 25:31. By this time we believers in this age will have been raptured to stand before the Lord at his Judgement - 2Ti 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.
What is this judgement in Matthew about? Justification through faith? Not of works?
A proper perspective of escatology is needed to derive the proper interpretation of this passage otherwise people will be "saved" by works (feeding, giving drink, clothing others, visiting in prison, etc).
This passage is refering to the time when the Lord Jesus will establish his Kingdom is it not?
Btw, this is not the great white throne judgement. So these cast into everlasting fire will be brought to stand before God at the GWT judgement. This fire must refer to an age lasting fire being that the GWT does not take place until after the 1000 years are ended - Rev 20:7-15
Also, are goats unclean animals? Just food for thought .
What is this judgement in Matthew about? Justification through faith? Not of works?
A proper perspective of escatology is needed to derive the proper interpretation of this passage otherwise people will be "saved" by works (feeding, giving drink, clothing others, visiting in prison, etc).
This passage is refering to the time when the Lord Jesus will establish his Kingdom is it not?
Btw, this is not the great white throne judgement. So these cast into everlasting fire will be brought to stand before God at the GWT judgement. This fire must refer to an age lasting fire being that the GWT does not take place until after the 1000 years are ended - Rev 20:7-15
Also, are goats unclean animals? Just food for thought .
Matthew 25:31-46 deals with the Lord's judgement of the remainder of the people here on the earth- not the JSOC or the GWT judgement. All will be saved at the JSOC even though some as by fire, nevertheless, ALL 1 Cor 3:15
This passage certainly takes place before the GWT b/c none in veiw here are raised from the dead to be judged. All Christians will have been raised prior to this point. Otherwise if you do not see this as the end of Daniel's seventieth week and how people will treat God's elect here on the earth at this time (Jews), you will run into some major doctrinal road blocks trying to make this passage deal with christians in our dispensation justified on the basis of faith alone.
BTW, Who says that outer darkness means hell ? Destruction means hell?
This passage certainly takes place before the GWT b/c none in veiw here are raised from the dead to be judged. All Christians will have been raised prior to this point. Otherwise if you do not see this as the end of Daniel's seventieth week and how people will treat God's elect here on the earth at this time (Jews), you will run into some major doctrinal road blocks trying to make this passage deal with christians in our dispensation justified on the basis of faith alone.
BTW, Who says that outer darkness means hell ? Destruction means hell?
Yikes, another one? It's an epidemic.
18 Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.”
20 And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Hope of Glory
New Member
npetreley said:Yikes, another one? It's an epidemic.
This is traditional Baptist teaching, BTW, whether you like it or not, and it's based entirely on Scripture, by comparing scripture to scripture, and not ignoring contradictions within Scripture.
Hope of Glory said:This is traditional Baptist teaching, BTW, whether you like it or not, and it's based entirely on Scripture, by comparing scripture to scripture, and not ignoring contradictions within Scripture.
Precisely! Thank you for proving my point that it's heresy!
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
npetreley said:Yikes, another one? It's an epidemic.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
nice smiley faces along with the quote about Satan and tares, not funny business to me and shouldn't be to you. I feel sorry for myself at this point b/c I have just entered into a thread where most here have reached the uttmost pinnacle of spiritual understanding. Sorry for my questions and thoughts. I was under the idea that we could possibly learn from one another and compare scripture. Is there anyone on this thread who will answer my question or comment on my opinions in a mature Christ-like manner. I am not here to bicker but to learn. I've not reached the limit of what God can teach me - have you? I'm open to answers, but please provide scripture. If you disagree with me its ok. I'll do my best to be respectful in my response to you.
Also there are alot of silent readers out there who are out there reading, as a christian brother I am exhorting each and every one of you that read this to be mindful of this fact. Also our Lord is watching as well. Is the way you are acting glorifiying him? Be patient and forbearing with one another - for we shall all give an account unto him.
Now what are your thoughts about what I posted about Matthew 25:31-46?
Also there are alot of silent readers out there who are out there reading, as a christian brother I am exhorting each and every one of you that read this to be mindful of this fact. Also our Lord is watching as well. Is the way you are acting glorifiying him? Be patient and forbearing with one another - for we shall all give an account unto him.
Now what are your thoughts about what I posted about Matthew 25:31-46?
npetreley said:Yikes, another one? It's an epidemic.
Another what ? Have I labled you or said anything offensive to you? Can you answer my questions or tell me where my opinions are wrong ?
Concerning your scripture quote from Matt 13---
I hope that I'm not being compared to the fowl of the air or leaven b/c of what I posted. Please go ahead and explain this judgement that is spoken of in Matthew 25. I dont feel that I was too far out of line with the conclusions that my studies have brought me to. how about you?
Do you partake in heresy? Maybe teach a little heresy? I would be careful how you label others. I am not so self assured as to say that nothing that I say or teach is heretical- I hope and pray that I am not involved in heresy. So can you say that everything you have said is absolutly right? Have you ever had to change your stance on anything biblically? -- If you see heresy in what I said please restore me in meekness. I am not trying to make enemies here and you shouldn't be either.
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The ones who go away into eternal punishment are the unsaved.
The righteous go into eternal life.
You are made righteous by grace through faith in Christ, not works.
Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt.
If you want to tell me that everlasting and eternal mean age lasting, been there done that, got the t-shirt, with other KS's.
Eternal means everlasting or lasting forever.
(have to go for now)
The ones who go away into eternal punishment are the unsaved.
The righteous go into eternal life.
You are made righteous by grace through faith in Christ, not works.
Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt.
If you want to tell me that everlasting and eternal mean age lasting, been there done that, got the t-shirt, with other KS's.
Eternal means everlasting or lasting forever.
(have to go for now)
RuntoWin welcome to the board. All judgments in Scripture are based upon works. They are either works of righteousness or they are works of iniquity.Now what are your thoughts about what I posted about Matthew 25:31-46?
These judgments NEVER determine your ultimate desination. That judgment comes before you ever leave this earth. After death (or rapture) the only thing left to judge is what did you do in your life.
God's blessings to you as you search for the Truth of Scripture!
Thanks Amy for your kind response. I see in this passge that these particular people ard declared righteous because of their deeds or works. Feed, give drink, clothed naked, visited people in prison. These are works aren't they?
This passage mentions nothing about a resurrection from the dead. JSOC- dead in Christ will be raised before us who are alive and remain then judgement. GWT -dead small and great raised to be judged. But no ressurection in this Matthew passage- Definetly not the same resurrection that Daniel is refering to, nothing is mentioned of the dead here.
Do you think this is the GWT?
And please do not think that I am implying in any way that works earn salvation. But if this passage means eternal (w/o beginning or end) life or everlasting life (w/ beginning but no ending) then all who believe that we are saved by faith alone (like myself) will have to rethink things.
Doesn't it say that they were declared rigtheous by works and thus their reward was eternal life?
This passage mentions nothing about a resurrection from the dead. JSOC- dead in Christ will be raised before us who are alive and remain then judgement. GWT -dead small and great raised to be judged. But no ressurection in this Matthew passage- Definetly not the same resurrection that Daniel is refering to, nothing is mentioned of the dead here.
Do you think this is the GWT?
And please do not think that I am implying in any way that works earn salvation. But if this passage means eternal (w/o beginning or end) life or everlasting life (w/ beginning but no ending) then all who believe that we are saved by faith alone (like myself) will have to rethink things.
Doesn't it say that they were declared rigtheous by works and thus their reward was eternal life?
Amy.G said:Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The ones who go away into eternal punishment are the unsaved.
The righteous go into eternal life.
You are made righteous by grace through faith in Christ, not works.[QUOTE ]
Amy I know that you and I are made righteous by grace through faith in Christ, not works. That is not an issue, believe me. Matthew 25:31-46 implies that they were declared righteous because of their deeds. Nothing in this passage about faith in the death and shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
P.S. not trying to be arguementative, but I want to make sure that God's word is represented to the best of our ability.
I'm guessing that no one wants to reply to my previous posts. I'm still very interested in hearing a reply from someone who can either add to or detract from whats been said concerning this passage in Matthew.
Hopefully I'm not being shunned b/c I am new - that would be unfortunate. Also I did not mean to get off track of the original thread, but I think all aspects of justification in scripture are important, especially when a particular passage like the one in Matthew is being used by some to presumptuously imply a certain belief system on all people who see accountability to the Lord. Just wanted to call bluff on those who think that all scripture fits into their doctrinal mold. Please study for yourselves.
Now is this passage dealing with justification through faith and what judgement is being talked about here?
Hopefully I'm not being shunned b/c I am new - that would be unfortunate. Also I did not mean to get off track of the original thread, but I think all aspects of justification in scripture are important, especially when a particular passage like the one in Matthew is being used by some to presumptuously imply a certain belief system on all people who see accountability to the Lord. Just wanted to call bluff on those who think that all scripture fits into their doctrinal mold. Please study for yourselves.
Now is this passage dealing with justification through faith and what judgement is being talked about here?
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
Run2Win said:Matthew 25:31-46 deals with the Lord's judgement of the remainder of the people here on the earth- not the JSOC or the GWT judgement. All will be saved at the JSOC even though some as by fire, nevertheless, ALL 1 Cor 3:15
This passage certainly takes place before the GWT b/c none in veiw here are raised from the dead to be judged. All Christians will have been raised prior to this point. Otherwise if you do not see this as the end of Daniel's seventieth week and how people will treat God's elect here on the earth at this time (Jews), you will run into some major doctrinal road blocks trying to make this passage deal with christians in our dispensation justified on the basis of faith alone.
BTW, Who says that outer darkness means hell ? Destruction means hell?
Has the Millenium Kingdom been prepared by God from the foundation of the world?
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:Has the Millenium Kingdom been prepared by God from the foundation of the world?
Mt 13:3 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Mt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world
I believe it was! Don't you brother? Do you believe that Our Lord will physically rule the Earth? I hope you do.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Still not going to address any of the other things I posted? If you haven't studied what i was talking about in Matthew 25 its ok, just say so. I'm not here to be an enemy- tell me your thoughts - am I wrong and why? Am I right and why?