Keep God's Word or Rebel against it for Jesus' sake?

[BobRyan]

When God's Word is quoted from Lev 11 or Isaiah 66 (where God says humans should not eat rats, cats, dog, bats or even human flesh) DHK responds with this

DHK said
You in effect say that the blood of Christ was not sufficient. Christ fulfilled the law which you claim you have to keep. You fail to distinguish between the law--civil, ceremonnial, and moral. You treat it all as one.

In Fact I keep saying that the Lev 23 annual Sabbath based on sacrifices (ceremonial law) ended as Heb 10 says it did with the "once for all sacrifice" of Christ.

I also state that civil laws of a theocracy end when the theocracy ends.
(The civil penalty of death for Sabbath breakers for example)

But then I point out the health laws against eating decaying corpses and against eating rats and cats in Lev 11, and I point out the moral law - the Ten Commandments in Ex 20 -- they STILL define sin today - showing that all mankind are sinners and all need salvation.

I do not simply take a broad brush and wipe out the Word of God as you would suggest that we do "in the name of Christ".

For Paul said "Do we then MAKE VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we establish the Law" Rom 3:31.

DHK said
You do not rightly divide the word of truth. You cannot even discern whether the law is referring to the Ten Commandments or the Torah, or something else. It doesn't always mean the same thing. One has to look at the context to tell what the word "law" means. Apparently you don't.
Again, you have put yourself under the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But you don't continue in ALL things which are written in the law, do you?

The "Curse of the Law" mentioned in Gal 3 refers to violation of the Law that defines sin - as Paul also points out in Romans 7. The LAW STILL defines sin and all who choose to sin are in need of salvation - so that is ALL.

Where there is no law there is no sin -- the very fact that we STILL need Christ proves our sins still point to our need of salvation as Romans 3 states is STILL the case.

Denying God's Word that DEFINES sin - is not a form of "honor to Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DQuixote]

What?

How ridiculous / confused can one be?

 

[Amy.G]

What?

How ridiculous / confused can one be?

Deceived is more like it.

 

[EdSutton]

What?

How ridiculous / confused can one be?

Deceived is more like it.

Amen, brother and sister! And DHK said it well, as well!

Maybe it depends on who gets to do the "picking and choosing"!

Ed

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law. He was/is the ultimate sacrifice. He did not destroy the Law, but fulfilled it so we would not have to. That's why we no longer follow the ceremonial law of animal sacrifice.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:18

The operative phrase in the above verse being till all be fulfilled.

The moral Laws (Ten Commandments) are still in effect, even though when we break one, we have broken them all and we do daily. IJohn 1:10.

God knew we could not keep them, that's why he wrote IJohn 1:9.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and it is wrong for us to try and follow it for it would make us slaves to the Law instead of a love slave to Jesus.

We have been bought with a price and adopted.

To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:5

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:15

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:14

 

[dispen4ever]

Well done, "I am blessed." Well done.

:jesus: <--------- our Champion.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law. He was/is the ultimate sacrifice. He did not destroy the Law, but fulfilled it so we would not have to. That's why we no longer follow the ceremonial law of animal sacrifice.

Very true.

And in Heb 10 the point is made explicitly that the sacrifices 'were ended' with His "once for ALL time" sacrifice.

The shadow sacrifices in the annual feast days pointed forward to the real sacrifice of Christ for us. They are completed in Christ.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:18

The operative phrase in the above verse being till all be fulfilled.

The moral Laws (Ten Commandments) are still in effect, even though when we break one, we have broken them all and we do daily. IJohn 1:10.

Indeed. They are STILL in effect and they STILL define sin - they STILL condemn all mankind as "sinners" according to Romans 3 --

STILL showing our need of Christ.

And so -- still today - a sinnner must accept Christ to be saved.

This is true even though Christ "loved God perfectly" and thus fulfilled Deut 6:5 "Love the Lord with all your heart".

We too are also STILL under that Mosaic command of God.

God knew we could not keep them, that's why he wrote IJohn 1:9.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and it is wrong for us to try and follow it

If that were true we would have to delete Romans 7, 1John 2, James 2, Eph 6, Romans 2, Romans 6, Romans 8, Matt 22 and pretty much most of the NT.

As you have stated - the Ten Commandments are still in place.

Scripture of the NT authors - was the OT so when we read about scripture in 2Tim 3:14-17 we are reading about the OT.

for it would make us slaves to the Law instead of a love slave to Jesus.

That can only be true of "seeking salvation through the Law".

Which obviously mankind could never have done in all of time as Paul points out in Gal 3.

But to equivocate between open rebellion against God's Law (not trying to follow it) vs honoring and submitting to the Law of God as in Romans 2 "Not the hearers but the DOERS of the Law of God WILL be justified" is to equivocate between truth and error.

God says that we MUST "Love Him and KEEP His Commandments" John 14:15. And God is right about that.

But He also states that sinnless perfectionism is not the basis of salvation. In Romans 6 we are freed from slavery to sin AND we are told not to yield to it for "by what a man is overcome to that he is a slave".

We are not to be "slaves to sin" by indulging in rebellion against the Law of God.

That is why Paul says "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:32.

in Romans 6 when Paul says "SIN shall not have dominion over you" he means - stop yielding to sin. And he also states that it IS the Law of God that DEFINES what sin is!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Talk about slavery!

2Pt:2:

18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Sorry, Ed. I wasn't very clear. My last two comments referred to the ceremonial laws that so many are trying to keep today.

Of course, the moral laws will always be valid.

 

[DHK]

Free from the law, O happy condition,
Jesus has bled and there is remission,
Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
Grace hath redeemed us once for all.
--Philip Bliss.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The Book of the Law is the Old Testament, especially the Torah. It is not simply sin as you claim. Nowhere is the "Book of the Law" defined as sin. How ludicrous! The Bible clearly says that if you--from birth to death--do not keep every statuted in the Mosaic Law, perfectly, without fail, every day of your life, you are cursed. One lie and you are cursed. One wicked thought and you are cursed. This only has to happen but one time in your life. You must continue sinless throughout the entirety of your life or you are cursed by the law.
You know, and I know that that is an impossiblity, and therefore you are cursed under the law.

James also says the same thing.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you ever lied?
Have you ever been angry with your brother (Jesus defintion of murder)
Have you ever looked upon a woman to lust after her (Jesus definition of adultery)
Have you ever allowed anything to come between you and God (idolatry)

If you have broken the law once, you are just as guilty as if you have broken all the law. We know that is true. Only a self-righteous hypocrite would try to deny it. And then their hypocrisy would be sin. God deals with hypocrisy. Ask Annanias and Sapphira.

You have placed yourself under the curse of the law by demanding yourself and others to keep the law.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
--We have freedom in Christ. Don't be entangled with the yoke of bondage--bondage to the law. The law was done away with at the cross.

Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
--The ones that hindered the Galatians were the keepers of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
--The law has been fulfilled. It was fulfilled in Christ's love for us on the cross. We in turn must love our neighbor. Christ fulfilled the law on the cross.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
--You cannot serve two masters Bob. Which is it? Is it the Law or the Holy Spirit?
I am led by the Spirit, not the Law. If you are led by the Law you are not led by the Holy Spirit. You can't have both.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--The law of sin and death was the Mosaic law. It brought death for no man could keep the law. That was evidenced by the one who picked up sticks on the Sabbath. He was stoned to death. If I do the same today will you be the one to stone me? Or if I find you breaking the Sabbath that you claim to keep, will you submit yourself to being stoned? Why some of the law and not the whole law? Why just the "convenient parts?"

The "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free." This law was not in the OT. This law came as a result of the work of Christ on the cross.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law could not save. The law only condemned. Keeping the law pointed one to their sinfulness. It does nothing for one's salvation.

The purpose fo the law was never for salvation:
Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We are not under the law; if you are you are cursed. The law simply proves that we have a knowledge of sin, and that before God, every mouth will be stopped and all the world is found guilty of their sin before God. It shows us our sin. It is not meant for us today to keep it. This is not the teaching of the NT. It is so very obvious, as seen in the above Scriptures.

 

[Claudia_T]

"Free from the law, O happy condition"

Here are some supporting Bible verses for that idea:

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.