"Keepers At Home, etc"

[Pastor David]

The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. ~ Titus 2:3-5

In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

 

[OldRegular]

The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. ~ Titus 2:3-5

In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

We often warehouse them in nursing homes!

 

[Pastor David]

We often warehouse them in nursing homes!

Of course you're right. That'll make a good topic for another thread

 

[annsni]

"In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

Our modern society has made life better for women to be able to be keepers at home because of all of the wonderful conveniences we have. We have many "slaves" in our home to help us do things quickly and efficiently from refrigerators to ovens to dishwashers to washing machines. The amount of work we need to do is so much less than what it was 100 years ago.

Our modern society has also hindered this because we've been fed a bunch of balogna about what is important for our lives. We are not important unless we are contributing to society by working and doing lots of volunteering - all taking us out of our home. Because we have less "chores" at home, we have more free time than ever to do whatever we want and instead of investing that time into our families, we are using it for self fulfillment - which will never be enough.



"In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

At this point in time, I do think the church has bought into the idea that a wife needs to work and frowns on women who stay home. I don't think it's a universal feeling in every church and every church goer, but it's certainly permeated the hearts of many church goers. Now we're having mom's day out, day care, preschool, etc - encouraging our moms to be away from their families. We do not encourage wives to submit in so many churches, and perpetuate the "needing to take care of ourselves" thing.

We have also lost the art of mentorship between women and that is something that I think has such huge consequences. So many women are pulled away from their families and no longer have aunts/mothers/grandmothers nearby to learn how to properly deal with family issues as they come up. Instead we are turning to 'experts' who tell us how to be good wives and good mothers - when they have no vested interest in our own lives. I'm getting SO sick of hearing "Well, this person said that I should have dinner on the table when my husband gets home." or "That person said I should not make dinner and expect my husband to make it since we're equals and I'm not a slave." or "Joe Blow is a parenting expert and he tells me that I should let my baby scream for 2 hours because it's not time to eat." or "Jane Doe says that I should never put my baby down." Who are these people and who made them God to tell me what to do? Do they KNOW me? Know my husband? Know my children? Know my circumstance? No. They don't.

 

[Allan]

"In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

Our modern society has made life better for women to be able to be keepers at home because of all of the wonderful conveniences we have. We have many "slaves" in our home to help us do things quickly and efficiently from refrigerators to ovens to dishwashers to washing machines. The amount of work we need to do is so much less than what it was 100 years ago.

Our modern society has also hindered this because we've been fed a bunch of balogna about what is important for our lives. We are not important unless we are contributing to society by working and doing lots of volunteering - all taking us out of our home. Because we have less "chores" at home, we have more free time than ever to do whatever we want and instead of investing that time into our families, we are using it for self fulfillment - which will never be enough.



"In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

At this point in time, I do think the church has bought into the idea that a wife needs to work and frowns on women who stay home. I don't think it's a universal feeling in every church and every church goer, but it's certainly permeated the hearts of many church goers. Now we're having mom's day out, day care, preschool, etc - encouraging our moms to be away from their families. We do not encourage wives to submit in so many churches, and perpetuate the "needing to take care of ourselves" thing.

We have also lost the art of mentorship between women and that is something that I think has such huge consequences. So many women are pulled away from their families and no longer have aunts/mothers/grandmothers nearby to learn how to properly deal with family issues as they come up. Instead we are turning to 'experts' who tell us how to be good wives and good mothers - when they have no vested interest in our own lives. I'm getting SO sick of hearing "Well, this person said that I should have dinner on the table when my husband gets home." or "That person said I should not make dinner and expect my husband to make it since we're equals and I'm not a slave." or "Joe Blow is a parenting expert and he tells me that I should let my baby scream for 2 hours because it's not time to eat." or "Jane Doe says that I should never put my baby down." Who are these people and who made them God to tell me what to do? Do they KNOW me? Know my husband? Know my children? Know my circumstance? No. They don't.

May I be so bold Ann as to say .. well put :thumbs:

 

[Beth]

I have experienced a mix

There are definitely times when I have felt that my local Body of believers devalues my service in my home for my husband and three children. When I hear advertisements from the pulpit of a "ladies day apart", and the pastor states that the church's goal is that every woman attend it....that is when I feel that what I am doing at home is devalued...somehow secondary to a public event taking place in the church building. My husband needs me home on Saturdays...this is his only day to work on our fixer-upper...he needs me to make the lunches, get the kids' church clothes lined up, find all the Bibles (lol!), basically handle the household while he is off to Loew's picking up more wood to finish our kitchen cabinets or off to bring the garbage to the dump.

Then, I feel even worse when the next Sunday the pastor asks for a show of hands of all the women who had attended the event the day before.....as if I am NOT as zealous as I could be, and that staying home to take care of my family is nothing more than a feeble excuse! :tonofbricks:

I feel the same way because I can't make the weekly women's Bible studies...one is scheduled on a Tuesday morning....I homeschool three children, and simply cannot take a whole morning off. I'm also disabled visually and can't drive anymore. The other is scheduled at night...again, my husband works 9 hour days and I like to have his supper ready for him and all the chores finished so he can come home to a relaxing house. But I still feel that pressure! It isn't like I DON'T study the Bible...I get up every morning before 5am so I can have time with the Lord to study and pray....but despite the fact that I KNOW I am being conscientious in my walk in Christ, when I hear those dreaded words...."WE WANT EVERY WOMAN IN THE CHURCH AT A WEEKLY LADIES BIBLE STUDY", those unsettling feelings of GUILT set in....like what I am doing in my home is REALLY NOT quite up to snuff!!! I mean, do I really have to study Kay Arthur at the same time everyone else is to be a really super duper Christian woman?? (LOL)

So, thank you for letting me rant, LOL! And if you didn't get my point, no, I think that often the church body does devalue how we women serve in our homes.

your sis in Christ,
Beth

 

[annsni]

There are definitely times when I have felt that my local Body of believers devalues my service in my home for my husband and three children. When I hear advertisements from the pulpit of a "ladies day apart", and the pastor states that the church's goal is that every woman attend it....that is when I feel that what I am doing at home is devalued...somehow secondary to a public event taking place in the church building. My husband needs me home on Saturdays...this is his only day to work on our fixer-upper...he needs me to make the lunches, get the kids' church clothes lined up, find all the Bibles (lol!), basically handle the household while he is off to Loew's picking up more wood to finish our kitchen cabinets or off to bring the garbage to the dump.

Then, I feel even worse when the next Sunday the pastor asks for a show of hands of all the women who had attended the event the day before.....as if I am NOT as zealous as I could be, and that staying home to take care of my family is nothing more than a feeble excuse! :tonofbricks:

I feel the same way because I can't make the weekly women's Bible studies...one is scheduled on a Tuesday morning....I homeschool three children, and simply cannot take a whole morning off. I'm also disabled visually and can't drive anymore. The other is scheduled at night...again, my husband works 9 hour days and I like to have his supper ready for him and all the chores finished so he can come home to a relaxing house. But I still feel that pressure! It isn't like I DON'T study the Bible...I get up every morning before 5am so I can have time with the Lord to study and pray....but despite the fact that I KNOW I am being conscientious in my walk in Christ, when I hear those dreaded words...."WE WANT EVERY WOMAN IN THE CHURCH AT A WEEKLY LADIES BIBLE STUDY", those unsettling feelings of GUILT set in....like what I am doing in my home is REALLY NOT quite up to snuff!!! I mean, do I really have to study Kay Arthur at the same time everyone else is to be a really super duper Christian woman?? (LOL)

So, thank you for letting me rant, LOL! And if you didn't get my point, no, I think that often the church body does devalue how we women serve in our homes.

your sis in Christ,
Beth

I'm sorry Beth. That IS frustrating. Have you spoken to the pastor about this? I wonder if your husband would be able to say something to the pastor. I think it's important for the pastor to understand that there are some who cannot make it due to circumstances and who do not WISH to be there because they are doing a more important ministry to their family and husbands and his continually pushing these things, he's making one of his congregants feel badly.

But know that you are absolutely following what God wants you to be doing. Your family is your ministry for this time in your life. There are seasons in our lives and right now, your season is the time where you raise up your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. When they're older and no longer need you all the time, you can find a way to get to Bible study. I'd love to go to ours (also on Tuesday) but with me taking out Fridays from our schedule as it is for me to work at the church and have homeschool group, we're already a day behind a week unless I double up on a subject a day. If I were to take out every Tuesday morning, it would be even worse and I'm not going to let that happen. There will be time for me to go in a few years when my kids are big (ok - more than a few years - we're just in first and third grades right now and I homeschool atleast through 8th grade).

Just wanted to tell you I heard your vent, I agree with you wholeheartedly and I want to applaud you for doing the right thing.

 

[Pastor David]

Wow. These are some great posts. Thank you all for sharing. Your own experiences have echoed some of my own. Whereas a wife and mother fulfilling her calling by focusing on home and family is often downplayed, and even criticized, it would seem she would find her greatest satisfaction in doing that which God seems to have created her to do. Thanks for the input.

 

[donnA]

In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

and the biblical profile says

not given to much wine,

you can't be 'not gien to much wine'' unless your drink wine to begin with.
These verses give a 'biblical profile' for two different kinds of women, older, and younger. I'm the older, not old, but older then young women with children.
so, how much wine can I actually drink? This verse is after all telling me I can drink wine.

 

[annsni]

and the biblical profile says

you can't be 'not gien to much wine'' unless your drink wine to begin with.
These verses give a 'biblical profile' for two different kinds of women, older, and younger. I'm the older, not old, but older then young women with children.
so, how much wine can I actually drink? This verse is after all telling me I can drink wine.

I'll give you my answer. No more than 4.2 oz. per day.


:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Pastor David]

and the biblical profile says

you can't be 'not gien to much wine'' unless your drink wine to begin with.
These verses give a 'biblical profile' for two different kinds of women, older, and younger. I'm the older, not old, but older then young women with children.
so, how much wine can I actually drink? This verse is after all telling me I can drink wine.

Right. I don't think you'll find an absolute prohibition against drinking wine in the Bible, which does leave it to us as a matter of conscience as to whether we choose to drink or not. It is between you and the Lord as to how much you think you can consume and not fall into the sin of drunkenness.

I think the point of adding that here in our passage is to caution older women not to be caught up in an addiction or preoccupation with wine so they are better able to fulfill their responsibilities laid out for teaching the younger.

 

[Beth]

Thank you, Anne

I'm sorry Beth. That IS frustrating. Have you spoken to the pastor about this? I wonder if your husband would be able to say something to the pastor. I think it's important for the pastor to understand that there are some who cannot make it due to circumstances and who do not WISH to be there because they are doing a more important ministry to their family and husbands and his continually pushing these things, he's making one of his congregants feel badly.

But know that you are absolutely following what God wants you to be doing. Your family is your ministry for this time in your life. There are seasons in our lives and right now, your season is the time where you raise up your children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. When they're older and no longer need you all the time, you can find a way to get to Bible study. I'd love to go to ours (also on Tuesday) but with me taking out Fridays from our schedule as it is for me to work at the church and have homeschool group, we're already a day behind a week unless I double up on a subject a day. If I were to take out every Tuesday morning, it would be even worse and I'm not going to let that happen. There will be time for me to go in a few years when my kids are big (ok - more than a few years - we're just in first and third grades right now and I homeschool atleast through 8th grade).

Just wanted to tell you I heard your vent, I agree with you wholeheartedly and I want to applaud you for doing the right thing.

Thank you for your support, Anne, I really appreciate that!

Beth

 

[webdog]

"In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

Our modern society has made life better for women to be able to be keepers at home because of all of the wonderful conveniences we have. We have many "slaves" in our home to help us do things quickly and efficiently from refrigerators to ovens to dishwashers to washing machines. The amount of work we need to do is so much less than what it was 100 years ago.

Our modern society has also hindered this because we've been fed a bunch of balogna about what is important for our lives. We are not important unless we are contributing to society by working and doing lots of volunteering - all taking us out of our home. Because we have less "chores" at home, we have more free time than ever to do whatever we want and instead of investing that time into our families, we are using it for self fulfillment - which will never be enough.



"In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?"

At this point in time, I do think the church has bought into the idea that a wife needs to work and frowns on women who stay home. I don't think it's a universal feeling in every church and every church goer, but it's certainly permeated the hearts of many church goers. Now we're having mom's day out, day care, preschool, etc - encouraging our moms to be away from their families. We do not encourage wives to submit in so many churches, and perpetuate the "needing to take care of ourselves" thing.

We have also lost the art of mentorship between women and that is something that I think has such huge consequences. So many women are pulled away from their families and no longer have aunts/mothers/grandmothers nearby to learn how to properly deal with family issues as they come up. Instead we are turning to 'experts' who tell us how to be good wives and good mothers - when they have no vested interest in our own lives. I'm getting SO sick of hearing "Well, this person said that I should have dinner on the table when my husband gets home." or "That person said I should not make dinner and expect my husband to make it since we're equals and I'm not a slave." or "Joe Blow is a parenting expert and he tells me that I should let my baby scream for 2 hours because it's not time to eat." or "Jane Doe says that I should never put my baby down." Who are these people and who made them God to tell me what to do? Do they KNOW me? Know my husband? Know my children? Know my circumstance? No. They don't.

I will also add that the converse is true in many churches, if the wife does not stay at home, their family model is not "biblical". Unfortunately, my wife and I both lost our jobs last year, and with her education being greater, she was able to land a job first. I'm "Mr. Mom" currently, taking care of the kids, washing clothes, dishes, playing with them, cooking meals, etc. It's not the ideal situation for me (or my wife), but it is what it is right now, and we are in this situation not by accident. We decided we would rather hold off on daycare for as long as possible and have at least one of us watching them. It is almost like we are being urged to "reconcile" this situation as quickly as possible, and we feel pressure at the moment because "most" Christian families have the wife at home. It is definitely stressful. Unfortunately, do to a couple business deals that have fallen apart (one including fraud and a lawsuit) we are in heavy debt and will need 2 salaries going forward, so we are praying hard about what God would have for us in the short and long term.

 

[Pastor David]

Webdog,

That is a difficult situation. May the Lord grant you guidance as you seek to serve and glorify Him.

 

[annsni]

I will also add that the converse is true in many churches, if the wife does not stay at home, their family model is not "biblical". Unfortunately, my wife and I both lost our jobs last year, and with her education being greater, she was able to land a job first. I'm "Mr. Mom" currently, taking care of the kids, washing clothes, dishes, playing with them, cooking meals, etc. It's not the ideal situation for me (or my wife), but it is what it is right now, and we are in this situation not by accident. We decided we would rather hold off on daycare for as long as possible and have at least one of us watching them. It is almost like we are being urged to "reconcile" this situation as quickly as possible, and we feel pressure at the moment because "most" Christian families have the wife at home. It is definitely stressful. Unfortunately, do to a couple business deals that have fallen apart (one including fraud and a lawsuit) we are in heavy debt and will need 2 salaries going forward, so we are praying hard about what God would have for us in the short and long term.

You are so right. I'm sorry for the situation you're in. I'll be praying for you brother.

 

[Beth]

Webdog

You gotta do what you gotta do, brother. I have good friends at church who are very shortly going to be in your boat. The wife renewed her nursing license this past summer, so she could start working some hours....the husband just heard that his CEO position is going to end shortly. They homeschool three children. He was out of work previously for almost six months before finding this present job. Remember that you and your wife are one, and you are both working to do the best for your family in these circumstances. I'll be in prayer for you guys!

 

[Surfer Joe]

The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. ~ Titus 2:3-5

In what ways does our modern society help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

In what ways does the modern church help/hinder cultivate this Biblical profile for women?

Are you sure that wasn't a cultural thing where Paul was just dealing with certain specific situations? When women in the Old Testament were judges, and women in the New Testament were deaconesses and prophetesses I am at least open to the possibility that there is more to this than meets the eye.

 

[annsni]

Are you sure that wasn't a cultural thing where Paul was just dealing with certain specific situations? When women in the Old Testament were judges, and women in the New Testament were deaconesses and prophetesses I am at least open to the possibility that there is more to this than meets the eye.

Can you show where the rest of the passage/letter is cultural?

 

[Pastor David]

Are you sure that wasn't a cultural thing where Paul was just dealing with certain specific situations? When women in the Old Testament were judges, and women in the New Testament were deaconesses and prophetesses I am at least open to the possibility that there is more to this than meets the eye.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are these things Biblical? Yes. Are they cultural? Yes. But this, in and of itself, does not put them at odds with one another. In fact, Paul is writing Titus to, "set things in order what had been lacking" (1:5). I believe as Christians, we can continue to accept what the world has to offer in terms of culture, and continue to be disapointed over and over, or we can do what Titus is doing here - building a godly culture within the church, encouaging and implementing wise and prudent practices which foster a lifestyle pleasing to God. Oh that the culture of the church today was closer to that Paul longed for!

 

[Surfer Joe]

Can you show where the rest of the passage/letter is cultural?

What do you mean?

I can show you that these directions are nowhere in many of the other books, leading one to believe that it could be focusing on a specific situation at a specific time. Are these directions found in Corinthians? Galatians? Ephesians?