Keeping the Passover in order to be saved

[evangelist6589]

I was doing some open air and some fellas from a Church of God congregation stopped me and tried to tell me that I was preaching another gospel since I was preaching repentance and not preaching about keeping the Passover. In their flawed exegesis which is mostly from the OT with some of Jesus's teachings one must keep the Passover. He gave me plenty of scripture which did not convince me. Maybe I should have not stopped my preaching to talk with him.

Anyone familiar enough with them?

 

[rsr]

Sounds like one of the successor groups to Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. There are several of them; one rejected his teachings and is now orthodox. The others still cling to Armstrong's stress on Jewish ritualism. They are not to be confused with the Pentecostal/Holiness Churches of God, which are far more numerous.

 

[Smyth]

The Apostle Paul addressed the faith of those converts to Christianity from Judaism who wanted retain the Jewish rituals. He said they were weak of faith. At least those converts had an excuse, they were raised in the Old Covenant. What excuse do modern gentiles have who want to keep the Jewish rituals, including holy days?

Evangelist6589, you should have asked those people where they buy their sacrificial animals from to keep Passover. Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

 

[evangelist6589]

The Apostle Paul addressed the faith of those converts to Christianity from Judaism who wanted retain the Jewish rituals. He said they were weak of faith. At least those converts had an excuse, they were raised in the Old Covenant. What excuse do modern gentiles have who want to keep the Jewish rituals, including holy days?

Evangelist6589, you should have asked those people where they buy their sacrificial animals from to keep Passover. Exodus 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

If only I had his email address so I could ask him.

 

[evangelist6589]

Sounds like one of the successor groups to Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. There are several of them; one rejected his teachings and is now orthodox. The others still cling to Armstrong's stress on Jewish ritualism. They are not to be confused with the Pentecostal/Holiness Churches of God, which are far more numerous.

So in other words it sure sounded like they were a cult, especially his stress on keeping to works in order to be saved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

They are confusing the old and new covenants. The old covenant was 'obsolete and growing old' and 'ready to pass away' (Hebrews 8:13) 2,000 years ago.
No male could keep the Passover unless he had been circumcised (Exodus 12:48). Christians err greatly if they persist in O.T. customs and rituals.

 

[Smyth]

No male could keep the Passover unless he had been circumcised (Exodus 12:48). Christians err greatly if they persist in O.T. customs and rituals.

People who aren't Jews weren't allowed to take part in Passover. If someone converted to Judaism, then he could take part, according to Exodus 12. Christians aren't Jews and therefore are banned from the ritual of Passover.

But, Christians are spiritual Jews and we keep the Passover in the form of accepting Christ as our Passover lamb.

Even though Judaizing is condemned in the Bible, Galatians 2:14, there are Judaizers among us who teach that we should keep elements of OT rituals. I don't know which cults are guilty of this, but we find such people in our churches.

 

[percho]

I thought this is what Paul had to say.

cleanse out, therefore, the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened, for also our Passover for us was sacrificed -- Christ, so that we may keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of evil and wickedness, but with unleavened food of sincerity and truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

I was doing some open air and some fellas from a Church of God congregation stopped me and tried to tell me that I was preaching another gospel since I was preaching repentance and not preaching about keeping the Passover. In their flawed exegesis which is mostly from the OT with some of Jesus's teachings one must keep the Passover. He gave me plenty of scripture which did not convince me. Maybe I should have not stopped my preaching to talk with him.

Anyone familiar enough with them?

Sounds like members from the church of God Seventh Day denomination. Most Messianic Jews also believe that the feasts of Leviticus 23 and the dietary laws of Leviticus 10-11 are to be administered by Christians today. They are still living under a type of Old Covenant administration. The Messianic Jews have yet to learn there is neither "Jew or Gentile" in Christ and the Old Covenant administration has been abolished.

 

[evangelist6589]

Sounds like members from the church of God Seventh Day denomination. Most Messianic Jews also believe that the feasts of Leviticus 23 and the dietary laws of Leviticus 10-11 are to be administered by Christians today. They are still living under a type of Old Covenant administration. The Messianic Jews have yet to learn there is neither "Jew or Gentile" in Christ and the Old Covenant administration has been abolished.

Are they a cult? I said to the man that they were and I was not interested in his teachings.

 

[robycop3]

Friends, the passover was given to ISRAEL ONLY. Who were "passed over" by God's destroyer, and who passed over the Red Sea? The ISRAELIS. (Not just the Jews.) However, God said that any gentile living among the Israelis could observe passover long as they observed the exact same rules as the Israelis did. HOWEVER THEY WERE NOT REQUIRED TBSERVE IT!

As for Israel, God said they were to observe it FOREVER, so right now, the Jews, the only Israelis whose national ID is known, should observe it at its ordained time and with the same rules God set forth. Modern passover, or seder, uses different rules. (But then most Jews don't believe Jesus is Messiah, either!)

So, any non-Israeli church that REQUIRES its members to observe passover is wrong.

 

[Smyth]

Friends, the passover was given to ISRAEL ONLY. Who were "passed over" by God's destroyer, and who passed over the Red Sea? The ISRAELIS. (Not just the Jews.) However, God said that any gentile living among the Israelis could observe passover long as they observed the exact same rules as the Israelis did. HOWEVER THEY WERE NOT REQUIRED TBSERVE IT!

Learn what you're talking about before you talk. God said Gentiles were prohibited from observing Passover. This has already been pointed out in this thread and it's clearly revealed in scripture. Exodus 12:43 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the statute of the Passover: no foreigner shall eat of it." Just the Jews, Exodus 12:48b "But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it."

As for Israel, God said they were to observe it FOREVER, so right now, the Jews, the only Israelis whose national ID is known, should observe it at its ordained time and with the same rules God set forth. Modern passover, or seder, uses different rules. (But then most Jews don't believe Jesus is Messiah, either!)

Christians are the true Jews (Romans 2:29) and the Church is the true Israel (Galatians 6:16). We keep the Passover through Christ, our Passover lamb.

There are no "Israelis who national ID is known" No Jews believe in the Messiah, by definition. If they believed Christ, they'd be a Christian, not a Jew. So-called Jews who reject Jesus are children of Satan (John 8:44)

 

[robycop3]

Smyth, your stuff is horse feathers. First, you're trying to teach REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, the false belief that the Church has replaced Israel in prophecy, a doctrine that's phony as a Chevy F-150.

Next, God plainly set forth rules for gentiles to observe passover:

Ex. 12:48 But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

Numbers 9:14 If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the Lord, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.’”

Third, if the Jews aren't Israelis, WHO IS ? ? WOW! The further I read your post, the sillier it gets!

I suggest you take your own advice and READ YOUR BIBLE before making another post, so it won't be as goofy as the one above!

 

[Smyth]

Next, God plainly set forth rules for gentiles to observe passover:

Ex. 12:48 But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

Ex 12:48 says a foreigner has to become a Jew to celebrate Passover.

Numbers 9:14 If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the Lord, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.’”

Numbers 9:14 must be understood in the light of Exodus 12:48. If an alien sojourns among among the Israelite wishes to take part in Passover, they may do so according to ordinances, which requires conversion.

Third, if the Jews aren't Israelis, WHO IS ? ? WOW! The further I read your post, the sillier it gets!

You said, "Israelis who national ID is known" Do you mean there are some Israeli citizens who don't know they're Israeli? I mean, don't all the Muslim citizens of Israel know they're Israelis? What did you mean?

 

[Yeshua1]

I was doing some open air and some fellas from a Church of God congregation stopped me and tried to tell me that I was preaching another gospel since I was preaching repentance and not preaching about keeping the Passover. In their flawed exegesis which is mostly from the OT with some of Jesus's teachings one must keep the Passover. He gave me plenty of scripture which did not convince me. Maybe I should have not stopped my preaching to talk with him.

Anyone familiar enough with them?

Jesus Himself changed the passover from being celebration of isreal out of Egypt to us now in the New Covenant as now from spieirual death to spiritual life, so would say your friend was going against Jesus himself on this!

 

[robycop3]

Ex 12:48 says a foreigner has to become a Jew to celebrate Passover.

No, it does NOT. It sez "AS a native of the land." They still remain whatever race or nationality they were before. remember, there were Egyptians, Midianites (Kenites), Ethiopians, (One of Moses' wives was an Ethiopian, as per Numbers 12:1), and not all Israelis were/are Jews.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

Numbers 9:14 must be understood in the light of Exodus 12:48. If an alien sojourns among among the Israelite wishes to take part in Passover, they may do so according to ordinances, which requires conversion.

No, that's not "conversion". Evidently, those people already worshipped God, or they wouldn't've wanted to observe passover. God merely required that all who would observe passover follow the same rules.

You said, "Israelis who national ID is known" Do you mean there are some Israeli citizens who don't know they're Israeli? I mean, don't all the Muslim citizens of Israel know they're Israelis? What did you mean?

The Jews consist only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The other tribes of israel are "out there", but right now, their national ID is known only to GOD. But God plainly said that Judah and the rest of Israel will be joined back as one nation again. Not happened yet, but it WILL.

All the prophecies about Judah and Israel apply to those literal, specific people. They do NOT apply to the Church. While any Israeli can become part of the Church, it's not automatic, just cuz they're Israelis.

"Replacement theology" is a false doctrine which dismisses quite a few prophecies from God Himself. When God says "Israel" or "Jacob" in prophecy, He is referring to all 12 tribes. When He says "Judah", He's referring to the Jews, who are only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. He separated Judah from the other tribes in the time of Rehoboam because of Solomon's sins, but He's gonna re-join ALL of Israel again. This is entirely-separate from His Church, which is made up of people from all nations & races.

 

[Smyth]

No, it does NOT. It sez "AS a native of the land." They still remain whatever race or nationality they were before. remember, there were Egyptians, Midianites (Kenites), Ethiopians, (One of Moses' wives was an Ethiopian, as per Numbers 12:1), and not all Israelis were/are Jews.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

The Bible doesn't say what you insist it says. Change your theology, and stop judging mine.

Your English translation says AS. The Hebrew is והיה כאזרח הארץ , literally "make [a] citizen [of the] land [or country]." There is no "as". The LXX says ὁ αὐτόχθων τῆς γῆς, literally "the [definite article, ruling out "as a"] native [of the] land." There is no "as". A foreigner in Israel must become a citizen of Israel to take part in Passover. (English translations add "as" because a foreigner isn't literally a native, which means born locally.)

You do understand what circumcision means? It's a sign of the Jewish covenant relationship with God, performed upon conversion. A foreigner must convert to Judaism to take part in Passover.

The LXX goes on to say in Ex 12:29 "There shall be one law to the native, and to the proselyte coming among you." Proselyte means a convert. The LXX was produced by Jewish experts before Christ. They understood Exodus 12:48 to require conversion.

No, that's not "conversion". Evidently, those people already worshipped God, or they wouldn't've wanted to observe passover. God merely required that all who would observe passover follow the same rules.

Yes, they already probably believed in God. But, they still had to make a formal conversion to take part in Passover.

The Jews consist only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The other tribes of israel are "out there", but right now, their national ID is known only to GOD. But God plainly said that Judah and the rest of Israel will be joined back as one nation again. Not happened yet, but it WILL.

The Church is Israel. God restored Israel at Pentecost, creating one nation, the commonwealth of Israel, through faith in Christ. The biblical (and modern) definition of Jew is a follower of the Old Covenant who hasn't accepted Christ. Hebrew Christians in the Bible were not Messianic Jews. The weren't Jews at all, except in the spiritual sense, where all Christians true Jews, children of Abraham and Sarah, and are heirs to the promises. All the Jews who reject Jesus are counted as children of Hagar, according to Paul (or of Satan, according to Jesus). There are no Jews to restore to Israel, because all Jews have already been restored to Israel.

 

[robycop3]

The Bible doesn't say what you insist it says. Change your theology, and stop judging mine.

Your English translation says AS. The Hebrew is והיה כאזרח הארץ , literally "make [a] citizen [of the] land [or country]." There is no "as". The LXX says ὁ αὐτόχθων τῆς γῆς, literally "the [definite article, ruling out "as a"] native [of the] land." There is no "as". A foreigner in Israel must become a citizen of Israel to take part in Passover. (English translations add "as" because a foreigner isn't literally a native, which means born locally.)

You do understand what circumcision means? It's a sign of the Jewish covenant relationship with God, performed upon conversion. A foreigner must convert to Judaism to take part in Passover.

The LXX goes on to say in Ex 12:29 "There shall be one law to the native, and to the proselyte coming among you." Proselyte means a convert. The LXX was produced by Jewish experts before Christ. They understood Exodus 12:48 to require conversion.



Yes, they already probably believed in God. But, they still had to make a formal conversion to take part in Passover.



The Church is Israel. God restored Israel at Pentecost, creating one nation, the commonwealth of Israel, through faith in Christ. The biblical (and modern) definition of Jew is a follower of the Old Covenant who hasn't accepted Christ. Hebrew Christians in the Bible were not Messianic Jews. The weren't Jews at all, except in the spiritual sense, where all Christians true Jews, children of Abraham and Sarah, and are heirs to the promises. All the Jews who reject Jesus are counted as children of Hagar, according to Paul (or of Satan, according to Jesus). There are no Jews to restore to Israel, because all Jews have already been restored to Israel.

How silly! An Ethiopian who was circumcised and observed passover was no more an Israeli than Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew. They mighta been of the Israeli RELIGION, but their race and birth nationality remained the same.

And again, the Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Does Scropture ever say "A Jew of the tribe of Dan"?

And NO, Israel is NOT the Church! That's part of the false doctrine of "replacement theology" and is phony as a Ford Corvette!

Your whole theological view is one twisted mess! How can you call yourself a Baptist when you believe such hogwash?

 

[Smyth]

How silly! An Ethiopian who was circumcised and observed passover was no more an Israeli than Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew. They mighta been of the Israeli RELIGION, but their race and birth nationality remained the same.

The Bible doesn't say the Ethiopian was circumcised or that he observed Passover. But, if he was, he was as much as Jew as Sammy Davis Jr. or any Jew in the state of Israel.

And again, the Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Does Scropture ever say "A Jew of the tribe of Dan"?

Anyone of any tribe or race living and practicing Judaism in first-century Judea would have been called a Jew. There's no one in the NT identified as from the tribe of Dan, so there's no evidence that such a person wasn't regarded as a Jew. (However, Christians in the NT weren't regarded as Jews, even if they were from the tribe of Judah or raised in the Jewish faith. And, unlike Danites, the NT is chock full of Hebrew Christians, mostly from the tribe of Judah.)

The term "Jew" comes from Judah, not Benjamin or Dan. If the term could be applied to someone from the tribe of Benjamin, there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't be applied to someone of the tribe of Dan. No. Reason.

The Passover chapter in Exodus of the Old Testament tells as that foreigners, gentiles, could convert and become Jews and native citizens of Israel. Ephesians 2 in the New Testament tell us the same thing about Christians. Those with faith in God are Israel. Those with faith in Christ are counted as children of Abraham and Sarah, heirs to the promises. The church is Israel. You don't like it, but you have no rebuttal. Repeating your doctrine while calling my doctrine false is not a product of reason or scripture.

 

[Darrell C]

And again, the Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. Does Scropture ever say "A Jew of the tribe of Dan"?

I wasn't going to get involved in this, but this is the second time you have made this statement and so I will, though I agree in large part with the views you are presenting, address this one issue (and just ask that you not not mention Ford Corvettes again, lol, as this is the finest automobile ever to set tire to the road).

Dan stands apart from the other Tribes in that he is not listed in Revelation, and should be viewed as the only Tribe we might consider to be excluded from an Eschatological scenario:


Revelation 7

King James Version (KJV)


4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


"Jew" is an acceptable term for the Children of Israel, and Israel always consists of the Tribes that comprised Israel in the Historical Record. The fact that Dan is not listed does not mean there were or are no Jews of that Tribe.

When Israel divided, all tribes returned to Judah, when they realized the evil of the King of Israel:


2 Chronicles 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam.

2 But the word of the Lord came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

3 Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,

4 Thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of me. And they obeyed the words of the Lord, and returned from going against Jeroboam.

5 And Rehoboam dwelt in Jerusalem, and built cities for defence in Judah.


We would have to answer whether in view is the people of the Tribes mentioned when God states "...speak...to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin," or, whether He is speaking about Israel as a whole being in those provinces. I take the position that all Israel as a whole is in view.

When Jeroboam plunged Israel into idolatry, we see the rejection of Jeroboam's actions by those of all of Israel, and this due to their desire to worship God.

And it began with the Tribe of Levi:


2 And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side.

13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the Lord:

15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.


Then...


16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the Lord God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the Lord God of their fathers.

17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.

(see link, in blue)


So we see that all Tribes can have the term Jew applied to them.


God bless.