Kent State, Ruby Ridge, WACO, Elián González

[Matt Black]

Like I said earlier, the Ruby Ridge and Waco references would have some resonance if they had been stormed by armed members of the ACLU, NAACP or union members. But they weren't - they were carried out by government employees acting quite legally (whatever you might think).

So, again, not even close, let alone a cigar!

 

[LadyEagle]

Ruby Ridge, WACO, Elián González - Legal or Feds Run Amuck?

Ruby Ridge, WACO, Elián González - Perfectly legal or Feds run amuck?

What say you and why?


Mod Note: I have moved Matt's post to start a new thread on this topic. LE

 

[billwald]

Yes, the US is in the process of becoming a "Christian" dictatorship.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

it would be best if Kent State was drooped ,form the list. It didn't involve Federal agencies. Kent State involved Ohio National Guardsmen.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes, the US is in the process of becoming a "Christian" dictatorship.

Only someone who knows nothing about Biblical Christianity could see this country becoming "Christian dictatorship". That's just funny. :tongue3:

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, dropping Kent State from the list, comments on the rest, please.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The Kent State shootings happened because the governor sent in under trained (for riots) guardsmen. IIRC, the troopies were infantry not military police. And they panicked.

Okay, dropping Kent State from the list, comments on the rest, please.

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, agreed. But do you have any opinion on the other items mentioned? Do you think the Feds went too far, or was it legal as Matt stated?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I watched the Senate's Ruby Ridge hearing. The FBI couldn't even get Feinstein on its side.
I look at Ruby Ridge and Waco as cases where the Feds went in with way too broad rules of engagement. In the Ruby Ridge, it was all based on entrapment. The FBI SWAT team seemed to want use the situation to justify its existence the same can be said for Waco (ATF) and Gonzalez (INS).

Okay, agreed. But do you have any opinion on the other items mentioned? Do you think the Feds went too far, or was it legal as Matt stated?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Ruby Ridge was carried out by lawful authorities, but were operating under illegal rules of engagement, which is why the mother was killed while holding a baby.

Waco was legal but poorly planned. They could have arrested koresh at any time he came into the local stores which he did quite often. The final catastrophe was brought on by their refusal to leave the compound and when faced with force determined to kill themselves.

The Elian Gonzalez raid was carried out by legally constituted authority.

They were legal because they were carried out under gov't authority. The issue of whether that governmental authority was morally right is another question, entirely.

 

[Matt Black]

One would expect at least private prosecutions or successful judicial reviews of the actions if they were genuinely illegal.

The basic point is that no democratically-elected government can endure for long if it tolerates the existence of hostile armed gangs (particularly those of a cultish bent) in its midst - that way lies anarchy or (to take us back to Germany in the early 1930s) - a dictatorship.

 

[billwald]

"Ruby Ridge" will never happen again. A house in the woods will simply disappear in an explosion attributed to a defective propane tank valve.

 

[LadyEagle]

"Ruby Ridge" will never happen again. A house in the woods will simply disappear in an explosion attributed to a defective propane tank valve.

Yep. Drones.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Matt, you're batting 1 for 3 in this remark.

Ruby Ridge: What "armed group"? IIRC, it was a what a five person family (husband, wife, three less than 12 year old children and a babe in arms) and a hired hand (who was killed in the first day).

Gonzalez: I don't remember anything about the family being armed. Yes, Elian was hiding in a closet in a relative's arms.

Waco: Okay, you've got a hit here. But as noted above, he could have been picked up in town if the AFT hadn't been such a bunch of cowboys.

One would expect at least private prosecutions or successful judicial reviews of the actions if they were genuinely illegal.

The basic point is that no democratically-elected government can endure for long if it tolerates the existence of hostile armed gangs (particularly those of a cultish bent) in its midst - that way lies anarchy or (to take us back to Germany in the early 1930s) - a dictatorship.

 

[Matt Black]

Yes, I had Waco principally in mind. And I guess in my mind I do tend to conflate the Weavers with the threat to democracy posed by the right wing militias, although I accept the two are not on all fours, although there are militia elements in the behaviour of the Weavers and their associates. Put it this way, if in the UK a family holed themselves up in their house armed to the teeth with some friends and shot at and killed the police, pretty much everyone I know would consider them an armed gang which posed a threat to public order

 

[Tom Bryant]

Yes, I had Waco principally in mind. And I guess in my mind I do tend to conflate the Weavers with the threat to democracy posed by the right wing militias, although I accept the two are not on all fours, although there are militia elements in the behaviour of the Weavers and their associates. Put it this way, if in the UK a family holed themselves up in their house armed to the teeth with some friends and shot at and killed the police, pretty much everyone I know would consider them an armed gang which posed a threat to public order

The initial attack oin the Weavers happened without the police identifying themselves as police. Then when the police were caught by the dog, they shot the dog. The the battle was on.

 

[Matt Black]

If you're a law-abiding citizen, when the police come to arrest you, you surrender to their custody and let the criminal justice system decide your guilt or innocence. Weaver and Co didn't, which made them criminals, armed criminals at that, which made them even more dangerous and more essential than ever that they be apprehended and brought to justice.

 

[Tom Bryant]

If you're a law-abiding citizen, when the police come to arrest you, you surrender to their custody and let the criminal justice system decide your guilt or innocence. Weaver and Co didn't, which made them criminals, armed criminals at that, which made them even more dangerous and more essential than ever that they be apprehended and brought to justice.

Maybe you ought to get more info on the Weavers than just what the state controlled media has told you.

 

[Matt Black]

Of which 'state controlled media' do you speak? And what further info do I need? People who try to kill policemen are scumbags as far as I'm concerned. (This is a sore point over here ATM - a drug-gang member killed two policewomen in Manchester last week in a gun and grenade attack.)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Matt, back in the day I watched the Senate Ruby Ridge hearings on C-Span. The situation was not as cut and dried as you portray it.