Kevin Bauder: A Fundamentalist's Education

[Rhetorician]

Hello to all:

I ran across this article and thought you all might like to read it, good stuff:

A Fundamentalist’s Education | Central Baptist Theological Seminary

Get back with opinions concerning one who has good credentials and good insights from the Fundamentalist's perspective.

This is cross posted in colleges and seminaries.

rd

 

[Rob_BW]

Quite an interesting read. Thanks for posting.

 

[rlvaughn]

I enjoyed reading it. Interesting how Bauder's conservatism (or fundamentalism) was strengthened while studying at schools that naturally might have led him to be less conservative.

 

[Rhetorician]

I enjoyed reading it. Interesting how Bauder's conservatism (or fundamentalism) was strengthened while studying at schools that naturally might have led him to be less conservative.

Bro. Vaughn,

You made an interesting observation that I think also applies to me.

Much of my graduate school has been done in very liberal venues. I did some of my best learning, IMHO, at; Harding Graduate School of Religion-one of the Churches of Christ seminaries, Memphis Theological Seminary-an ecumenical seminary of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, and The University of the South's-School of Theology @ Sewanee-the very liberal and left leaning Episcopal Church seminary.

In fact I think it might have made me a better Baptist. Made me think through what I believe on a different level for sure.

One man's perspective and opinion.

rd

 

[rlvaughn]

One point that Bauder makes -- and which is probably also true of you -- was that he was older and more experienced when he began those studies. Sometimes the starry-eyed young student is shocked and awed by the elevated professors, and swallows all down, hook, line, and sinker.

I was still fairly young when I went to Bible College, but in comparison to many classmates, had been well grounded in Bible studies by my church, teachers and pastors. Many of my fellow students knew next to nothing about the Bible or theology. I'm not saying that as a pat on my back -- for there is worlds of biblical stuff that I didn't know and still don't know. But many others seemed to have little backgound in the Bible. For example, in a homiletics class assignment to make a sermon outline on "assurance," everyone else did an outline on eternal security.

I suspect it would do most people good to get some "real world experience" before going on to higher education classes. Of course, a big problem there is it can be hard to move back to that after being out of school awhile.

 

[Jerome]

I appreciate Dr. Bauder's commitment to accuracy in presenting the history of Baptist Fundamentalism.

From his powerpoint for his Central Seminary's Spring 2009 Pastors' Day lecture:

Did You Know?
Baptist fundamentalists used to accept and employ women preachers?
For a detailed discussion, see Janet Hassey, No Time for Silence.
I’ll give you a bit of information about a female preacher whom Hassey does not mention.

Amy Lee Stockton
First student at Northern Baptist Seminary (1909).
Licensed by Wealthy Street Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Accompanied by musician Rita Gould, also licensed by Wealthy Street.

Stockton’s backers included:
Oliver W. Van Osdel (founder of the GARBC)
H. H. Savage (Pontiac, Michigan)
T. T. Shields (Toronto, Ontario, Canada)
David Otis Fuller (Grand Rapids, Michigan)

I've done my own research and found that Amy Stockton also preached at Hamilton Square Baptist Church (San Francisco), and at Capitol Hill Baptist Church (Washington, D.C.) where she returned year after year. It was she who finished Mel Trotter's last evangelistic campaign, in North Carolina, when he was felled by a heart attack.

 

[rlvaughn]

Baptist fundamentalists used to accept and employ women preachers?

Kind of off topic, but in my recent foray into Free Will Baptist history, I found that women evangelists and even pastors were fairly common in the first half of the 20th century, but increasingly came to be looked on with disfavor.

I appreciate Dr. Bauder's commitment to accuracy in presenting the history of Baptist Fundamentalism.

I have found Bauder's historical posts on In the Nick of Time to be very helpful to me in beginning to understand Northern Fundamentalism.

 

[Jerome]

Bauder devotes a number of pages to preacher Amy Lee Stockton in his book with Robert Delnay, One in Hope and Doctrine: Origins of Baptist Fundamentalism, 1870–1950 (Regular Baptist Press, 2014). PDF of the first chapter of the book and index provided here.

Reviewed in Cambridge's Church History journal:

cambridge.org/core/journals/church-history/article/one-in-hope-and-doctrine-origins-of-baptist-fundamentalism-18701950-by-kevin-bauder-and-robert-delnay-schaumburg-ill-regular-baptist

"The book is based on rigorous scholarship, complemented by the authors' inside knowledge of their subjects. Even when discussing theological liberals and other opponents of Baptist fundamentalism, they are for the most part balanced in their assessment."

"Bauder and Delnay have brought to the fore a couple of historical actors who have been overlooked previously. One in particular is Oliver Van Osdel of the Wealthy Street Baptist Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In the development of fundamentalism within the old Northern Baptist. Convention (NBC) and the formation of the Baptist Bible Union (BBU), Van. Osdel was probably more significant than the early fundamentalist stars—William Bell Riley, T.T. Shields, and J. Frank Norris. While those three crisscrossed the country rallying and energizing fundamentalists, Van Osdel worked diligently behind the scenes to build an actual fundamentalist movement in Michigan that became a core part of the BBU. When the BBU fell apart in the early 1930s, and the big three went on to other things, Van. Osdel and some of his even lesser known compatriots founded the General. Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC)."

 

[Rhetorician]

One point that Bauder makes -- and which is probably also true of you -- was that he was older and more experienced when he began those studies. Sometimes the starry-eyed young student is shocked and awed by the elevated professors, and swallows all down, hook, line, and sinker.

I was still fairly young when I went to Bible College, but in comparison to many classmates, had been well grounded in Bible studies by my church, teachers and pastors. Many of my fellow students knew next to nothing about the Bible or theology. I'm not saying that as a pat on my back -- for there is worlds of biblical stuff that I didn't know and still don't know. But many others seemed to have little backgound in the Bible. For example, in a homiletics class assignment to make a sermon outline on "assurance," everyone else did an outline on eternal security.

I suspect it would do most people good to get some "real world experience" before going on to higher education classes. Of course, a big problem there is it can be hard to move back to that after being out of school awhile.

Bro. Vaughn,

True and well said. Another astute observation of you. Your experience is much like mine I suppose from hearing your testimony.

May God make your tribe to increase as we progress for His Glory.

rd

 

[rlvaughn]

I also enjoyed these articles by Bauder:
Initial Thoughts on Distance Education
Roger, Roger | Part Four: Today’s Situation
and especially
The Baptist Paradox

... One in Hope and Doctrine: Origins of Baptist Fundamentalism, 1870–1950 (Regular Baptist Press, 2014).

Thanks for the mention. Just ordered it.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

When was she at HSBC? I assume it was before Arno Q. Wenigar's pastorate (1942-1977). At one point, he had a lectern on the platform so a woman would not occupy the pulpit.

I've done my own research and found that Amy Stockton also preached at Hamilton Square Baptist Church (San Francisco)

Yeup, there's enough Northern Fundamentalist history to keep a person too busy to worry about what went on down South.

I have found Bauder's historical posts on In the Nick of Time to be very helpful to me in beginning to understand Northern Fundamentalism.

 

[Jerome]

Amy Stockton also preached at Hamilton Square Baptist Church (San Francisco), and at Capitol Hill Baptist Church (Washington, D.C.).

When was she at HSBC?

Miss Stockton preached there when Louis J. Sawyer was pastor, but I don't see why the time would matter, since as you've said:

we were Fundamentalists before Fundamentalism was fun. IOW, we haven't changed doctrinally since our founding in 1881.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Me, I've found enough to interest me in the history of the Northern Baptist movement to keep me too busy to be all that mindful of what was going on down South

I have found Bauder's historical posts on In the Nick of Time to be very helpful to me in beginning to understand Northern Fundamentalism.

Miss Stockton preached there when Louis J. Sawyer was pastor, but I don't see why the time would matter, since as you've said
Squire Robertsson said: ↑
we were Fundamentalists before Fundamentalism was fun. IOW, we haven't changed doctrinally since our founding in 1881.

Yes, in a moment of terseness I did write that. I found this in HSBC's official history written for its 120th anniversary:

[Louis Sawyer]served the Hamilton Square Baptist Church during two eventful periods of its history: September 1, 1902, through August 31, 1915 and September 1, 1922, through February 6, 1931. page 37, The Little Church of Hamilton Square, 2nd editon, 2002)

This lets me put Miss Stockton into a historical context. Brother Sawyer pastored HSBC in the heyday of the NBC. Fundamentalism was just begining to rumble through its ranks during his second term as HSBC's pastor. IOW, he served in a time of transition.
This also reminds me of the warning "Do not confuse orthopraxy with orthodoxy."

 

[agedman]

It has long been the assumption that the Yankees held a form of the truth, but denied the truth in practice.



Somewhere I posted how an early controversy in Baptist churches was over congregational singing.

The strident held that such singing (remember it was typically the psalms) was presenting the gospel and therefore such was not allowed to be done when women were in the. assembly.

A brief reading of the events can be found here :
https://founders.org/2017/12/08/the...nd-the-reformation-of-congregational-singing/

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Considering HSBC's 120+ year history, I see this incident as an anomaly. Further, HSBC is a California church. While California was a Union State, we are most definitely not Yankees.

It has long been the assumption that the Yankees held a form of the truth, but denied the truth in practice.

 

[Rhetorician]

It has long been the assumption that the Yankees held a form of the truth, but denied the truth in practice.



Somewhere I posted how an early controversy in Baptist churches was over congregational singing.

The strident held that such singing (remember it was typically the psalms) was presenting the gospel and therefore such was not allowed to be done when women were in the. assembly.

A brief reading of the events can be found here :
https://founders.org/2017/12/08/the...nd-the-reformation-of-congregational-singing/

Dear agedman,

I am glad for you to read from the Founders Journal and quote my good friend and colleague Jeff Robinson. You had better watch out, if you are not a Particular Redemptionist, you will be by reading that kind of stuff!!! LOL!!!

rd

 

[Jerome]

It has long been the assumption that the Yankees held a form of the truth, but denied the truth in practice.

Who holds such a faulty assumption regarding Northern Baptist Fundamentalists?

 

[agedman]

Who holds such a faulty assumption regarding Northern Baptist Fundamentalists?

Why would you think it a “faulty assumption?”

Can you name a fundamental independent Baptist Church in the south that endorsed a woman preachet?

 

[agedman]

Dear agedman,

I am glad for you to read from the Founders Journal and quote my good friend and colleague Jeff Robinson. You had better watch out, if you are not a Particular Redemptionist, you will be by reading that kind of stuff!!! LOL!!!

rd

I hold to the Doctrines of Grace with a modified limited atonement placed upon belief rather than blood shed.

My “LA” would be “LR”

 

[Jerome]

I'm not sure why reading about a squabble between Baptists over prohibiting singing in worship would affect your TULIP status.

You had better watch out, if you are not a Particular Redemptionist, you will be by reading that kind of stuff!!!