Kingdom Exclusion

[J. Jump]

1Co. 9:27

“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Okay let's break this down.

The context here is not Paul’s salvation, but his Christian service.

Absolutely agree!

Paul was concerned that he would be castaway in the sense that he would be put on a shelf in this life or that his service would be rejected or disapproved at the judgment seat of Christ.

I would agree with the last statement in that Paul was concerned about the judgment seat of Christ.

The same Greek word is translated “rejected.” Paul was not afraid that he would be lost.

I would agree in that he wasn't going to be "lost" as in unsaved. And no one has said anything about one losing their salvation, except DPT.

He testified that he knew Christ would keep him (2Ti 1:12). What he feared was falling short of God’s high calling for his life.

Exactly! That's what we have been trying to explain.

The context makes this plain. He is talking about running a race and winning a prize.

Again that is exactly correct.

To confuse this passage with salvation is to misunderstand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again exactly! Although I would add the gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not a reward for faithful service.

Exactly. Eternal salvation is not a reward for faithful service! Again that is what we have been trying to say.

The Bible plainly states that salvation is by grace, and grace is the free, unmerited mercy of God (Eph 2:8-9). Anything that is merited or rewarded, is not grace (Ro 11:6).

So far so good!

On the other hand, after we are saved by the marvelous grace of God, we are called to serve Jesus Christ.

Absolutely!

We are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works” (Eph 2:10). If a Christian is lazy and carnal, he will be chastened by the Lord (Heb 12:6-8),

Exactly again what we have been trying to say. He will be chastened here in this life. and as the author says it is possible that God will take that person out of this life if they do not respond.

But what Mr. Cloud and others fail to realize is that chastening is not said to stop in this life. There is no Scirptural evidence that death is the magical solution that makes evertying okay.

Where does it say that Paul would "be excluded or cast away" from the Kingdom?

Running the race is qualifying one's self for what is to come. The age to come is the kingdom age. Not everything is so simply laid out. If it was everyone would understand. If you truly want to know Scripture you are going to have to labor and dig for the Truths which are not always on the surface.

The Kingdom is NOT a reward for service--our crowns are our rewards.

And if you don't have any crowns then how can you rule? Rulers have crowns.

ALL believers are rewarded. (2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 3:11-15).

Absolutely! But not all rewards are positive!

No believer is going to excluded from the Kingdom.

Again where is your Biblical support for this statement. Anyone can make a statement. Please show me Scripture that say every believer will be included in the kingdom. It just does not exist.

There will be many who will "suffer loss of reward"--but they will not be tossed into "outer darkness" to be "purged" for 1,000 years. That is a lie!

Well then I guess you are calling Scripture a lie, because that is EXACTLY what Scripture says. And we can either believe it or not. I choose to believe it.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

It is if the other option is send them away permanently!

I don't understand why people think that God is going to allow unfaithful Christians to rule and reign right along side those that have been faithful and died to self and all the things that we are supposed to do as Christians.

What is my motivation to do the right thing if I can be saved and live any ole way I want to and still get everything else every faithful Christian is going to get. That doesn't even make sense.

Matthew 20:1-15 Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Whether one does little work until the Lord calls him home, or much work, that one is promised to be ever with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4). He is the rewarder, not you or I. We have been promised that we will ever be with the Lord, not cast out because we were not as faithful as others.

 

[J. Jump]

Whether one does little work until the Lord calls Him home, or much work, that one is promised to be ever with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4). He is the rewarder, not you or I. We have been promised that we will ever be with the Lord, not cast out because we were not as faithful as others.

Problem is use used a parable that doesn't even fit the context of what you are trying to talk about. Every worker in that parable was faithful. Not every Christian is a faithful worker regardless of how long or short their work day is. That is the issue, not whether or not faithful Christians will be positively rewarded.

All faithful Christians will be positively rewarded just as the parable you brought up says.

However there are at least three parables that I can think of right off the top of my head that shows that not all believers are going to be faithful.

That is the issue faithfulness and unfaithfulness. There is nowhere in Scripture that says all believers will be faithful and obedient. If we were then the warning to be faithful and obedient are pointless.

And if you will go back to your I Thessalonians passage and look at it in context it is speaking for "faithful" Christians. And if you and I are found to be faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians then yes we will be with the Lord forever.

However if we are found to be wicked, slothful, lazy, unfaithful, disobedient overcomed servants then we are going to miss out on the kingdom.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

J.Jump,

You are asking for biblical support for no kingdom exclusion, where is your support for exclusion?

I see scripture where the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom, yet I cannot find the saved not inheriting it.

 

[Linda64]

Again where is your Biblical support for this statement. Anyone can make a statement. Please show me Scripture that say every believer will be included in the kingdom. It just does not exist.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

No casting out found in this verse

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

When does the redemption of the purchased possession take place? What is our inheritance?

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Colossians 1:12-13)

The burden of proof is yours to show scripture that specifically states that the "unfaithful" believer will be "cast into outer darkness" for 1,000 years.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2 Corinthians 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

2 Corinthians 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

After all of the times, that Paul has used may, should, might, you would think he could read the passage. Faust is stating it reads you may be accepted or you MAY NOT. (rejected) No, no, no, kiddies. That’s EXACTLY how Paul is not using the term, may. Paul’s not using it LIKE THE WEATHERMAN. (It may rain, or it may not.)... It’s a FUTURE TENSE of PURPOSE and EXPECTATION. (He’s laboring that he may be accepted DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE IS.) He’s accepted in the beloved already. That’s WHY every Christian should labour for the Lord.

The passage deals with Paul’s CONFIDENCE. (Look at verse 6.) That CONFIDENCE is given by the HOLY SPIRIT. (Look at verse 5.) WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD. (See Rom.8:16-17) We have that confidence whether present or absent. (Verses 6-

WHEREFORE WE LABOUR! Due to the confidence folks, that we may be accepted of him. It’s STATING NOTHING about anyone being rejected. It’s stating about acceptation due to confidence GIVEN by the Holy Spirit. The IDEA of rejection is INTERJECTED, SURMISED, SUPPOSED, and falsely INFERRED. That FALSE IDEA ain’t cross-referenced or corroborated by another documenting prooftext from ANYWHERE in the Pauline epistles.

taken from http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm166.showMessage?topicID=39.topic

 

[J. Jump]

I see scripture where the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom

There is your proof right there and you are even the one that posted it.

Inheritance is what is in view and only members of the family are even in a position to inherit. Unsaved folks aren't even in view, because inheritance is the context. Inerhitance is a family issue, so only those that are members of the family of God are in view. Only saved folks are in view.

The only other option is that unsaved folks are in view and they miss the kingdom based on works, which means that salvation is not by grace, but by works. That's not even a viable option, because we know salvation is by grace and not by man's works.

That is the amazing thing about the Bible is it only leaves one clear interpretation that is consistent from beginning to end.

 

[J. Jump]

No casting out found in this verse

Linda I can prove just about anyting under the sun if I pluck a verse from here or there and take it out of its context.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Again you are taking a verse out of context to make it fit your theology. Ephesians was written to faithful Christians. Not all Christians are faithful, therefore not all of Ephesians applies to all Christians. Context is king!

The burden of proof is yours to show scripture that specifically states that the "unfaithful" believer will be "cast into outer darkness" for 1,000 years.

That has been done for you several times and you just continue to deny what has already been shown. Go back and read the parable of the talents, pounds and virigns.

 

[J. Jump]

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You even highlighted the key verse and then speak as if it doesn't even exist. Notice what the verse says. It says that we will receive the things done in this body whether it be good or bad.

That means if a Christian has done bad things they are going to receive a negative not a postive. You all are trying to make this verse say . . . it doesn't matter whether you did good or bad everyone will receive the same as everyone else.

And that's simply not what that verse is saying.

If you do bad you do not inherit the kingdom. Do not be ignorant, God is not mocked what a man sows a man will reap. If you sow to teh Spirit you will reap life, but if you so to the flesh you will reap corruption.

That's not a warning to saved and unsaved that is a warning to saved only. If we reap according to our flesh we are going to receive our just reward and it's not going to be ruling and reigning with Christ.

Again that makes no sense. Live like you want to becuase in the end everyone is okay. What motivation do I have to live right if I can have everything the world has to offer here and now and still get to rule and reign with Christ even though I lived like the devil on this earth.

Makes ZERO sense.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The fact that the unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom does not prove the saved can be excluded. That is a twist of God's Word.

When one is saved, one is clothed in Christ's righteousness, not one's own. One's own righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord.

Paul stated that he warred with the flesh constantly just as we all do. Paul stated over and over that the saved are 'in Christ Jesus.'

Those who are saved are clothed in His Righteousness and therefore will be accepted in the kingdom, no matter how much one tries to twist the scripture to say otherwise.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

[/b]

You even highlighted the key verse and then speak as if it doesn't even exist. Notice what the verse says. It says that we will receive the things done in this body whether it be good or bad.

That means if a Christian has done bad things they are going to receive a negative not a postive. You all are trying to make this verse say . . . it doesn't matter whether you did good or bad everyone will receive the same as everyone else.

And that's simply not what that verse is saying.

If you do bad you do not inherit the kingdom. Do not be ignorant, God is not mocked what a man sows a man will reap. If you sow to teh Spirit you will reap life, but if you so to the flesh you will reap corruption.

That's not a warning to saved and unsaved that is a warning to saved only. If we reap according to our flesh we are going to receive our just reward and it's not going to be ruling and reigning with Christ.

Again that makes no sense. Live like you want to becuase in the end everyone is okay. What motivation do I have to live right if I can have everything the world has to offer here and now and still get to rule and reign with Christ even though I lived like the devil on this earth.

Makes ZERO sense.

You are saying that that verse says one is excluded from the kingdom for bad things done, when it does not even imply it.

 

[J. Jump]

You are saying that that verse says one is excluded from the kingdom for bad things done, when it does not even imply it.

No that verse doesn't say anyting about kingdom exculsion per se, but it's a matter of taking verses in context and comparing Scripture with Scripture, and when that is done one can see that a result of a negative reward at the judgment seat is a loss of the kingdom.

Again no crowns means no rule.

 

[J. Jump]

The fact that the unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom does not prove the saved can be excluded. That is a twist of God's Word.

When one is saved, one is clothed in Christ's righteousness, not one's own. One's own righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord.

Paul stated that he warred with the flesh constantly just as we all do. Paul stated over and over that the saved are 'in Christ Jesus.'

Those who are saved are clothed in His Righteousness and therefore will be accepted in the kingdom, no matter how much one tries to twist the scripture to say otherwise.

Sorry, but Scripture just doesn't support your claims.

You can find both in the OT and the NT that we are to clothe ourselves when it comes to works AFTER the moment eternal salvation is set.

The OT shows us this in Rebecca who puts on her wedding veil not Isaac putting it on her. It is also seen in Ruth arraying herself before meeting Boaz not Boaz dressing her.

Then in the NT you can find this in Revelation 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Again we can just accept and believe Scripture for what it says or we can continue believing man-made tradition.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The fact that the unrighteous do not inherit the kingdom does not prove the saved can be excluded. That is a twist of God's Word.

When one is saved, one is clothed in Christ's righteousness, not one's own. One's own righteousness is as filthy rags before the Lord.

Paul stated that he warred with the flesh constantly just as we all do. Paul stated over and over that the saved are 'in Christ Jesus.'

Those who are saved are clothed in His Righteousness and therefore will be accepted in the kingdom, no matter how much one tries to twist the scripture to say otherwise.

Although you seldom respond to nay of my posts, I'll try again.

If we take the truth of our being clothed in righteousness (like you have above) in an absolute sense (In other words we stretch it beyond the boundries of justification and apply it without restraint to sanctification too), then what part of Christ's righteousness are we chastened for when the Father chastens us?

[rhetorical sarcasm] Why are we saved Christians chastened at all? Is the blood not sufficient to cover us? Isn't every sin forgiven? [/rhetorical sarcasm]

You take a beautiful truth (absolute forgiveness) and apply it to something it has no business being applied to (reward), and wind up with a works-based justification.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice that the only qualifier is what they DO! This is addressed to believers (See v 13 for goodness sake it tells why these verses were written. -To warn us of the consequences if we use our "liberty for an occasion to the flesh") There is nothing in this chapter written to the unbeliever. If you try to apply it to the unbeliever then you are left with a mongrel doctrine that says "Don't envy, don't murder, etc. or you won't inherit the Kingdom. "

If they were not saved, then Paul would have told them how to get saved. He certainly knew.

Why warn unbelievers that if they DO these things, they will miss the kingdom? They can abstain from all of these activities 'till the cows come home and still spend eternity in the LOF and never even get a whif of the Kingdom.

Lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

No that verse doesn't say anyting about kingdom exculsion per se, but it's a matter of taking verses in context and comparing Scripture with Scripture, and when that is done one can see that a result of a negative reward at the judgment seat is a loss of the kingdom.

Again no crowns means no rule.

Every child of God will receive at least one crown. So, kingdom entrance, if based on having a crown, is promised.

Also, in the Millenial Kingdom, those who rule and reign with Christ shall rule and reign with a rod or iron or authority. Who are they ruling over if the saved who have no crowns are not there?

You might say the unsaved that entered into that dispensation, yet that would make God a respector of persons. For He would be allowing unsaved into the kingdom and putting saved out of the kingdom.

Makes ZERO sense.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Sorry, but Scripture just doesn't support your claims.

You can find both in the OT and the NT that we are to clothe ourselves when it comes to works AFTER the moment eternal salvation is set.

The OT shows us this in Rebecca who puts on her wedding veil not Isaac putting it on her. It is also seen in Ruth arraying herself before meeting Boaz not Boaz dressing her.

Then in the NT you can find this in Revelation 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Again we can just accept and believe Scripture for what it says or we can continue believing man-made tradition.

Check into ancient Jewish customs and you will in fact find that the groom did clothe the bride. He bought the wedding garments, he provided them. Sure Rebecca put her veil on, and Ruth put on her attire, but that attire, just as in the Marriage feast, was provided by the groom. It was not her own garment!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Every child of God will receive at least one crown. So, kingdom entrance, if based on having a crown, is promised.

verse please.

Also, in the Millenial Kingdom, those who rule and reign with Christ shall rule and reign with a rod or iron or authority. Who are they ruling over if the saved who have no crowns are not there?

Good question. I have some ideas. But your question proves nothing and must await the answer to other more pertinate questions before it can be answered. Unless you assume the thing to be proven.

You might say the unsaved that entered into that dispensation, yet that would make God a respector of persons. For He would be allowing unsaved into the kingdom and putting saved out of the kingdom.

Makes ZERO sense.

I might say something else. It would likewise make zero sense to you until we solved our other debate.

Lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Although you seldom respond to nay of my posts, I'll try again.

If we take the truth of our being clothed in righteousness (like you have above) in an absolute sense (In other words we stretch it beyond the boundries of justification and apply it without restraint to sanctification too), then what part of Christ's righteousness are we chastened for when the Father chastens us?

[rhetorical sarcasm] Why are we saved Christians chastened at all? Is the blood not sufficient to cover us? Isn't every sin forgiven? [/rhetorical sarcasm]

You take a beautiful truth (absolute forgiveness) and apply it to something it has no business being applied to (reward), and wind up with a works-based justification.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice that the only qualifier is what they DO! This is addressed to believers (See v 13 for goodness sake it tells why these verses were written. -To warn us of the consequences if we use our "liberty for an occasion to the flesh") There is nothing in this chapter written to the unbeliever. If you try to apply it to the unbeliever then you are left with a mongrel doctrine that says "Don't envy, don't murder, etc. or you won't inherit the Kingdom. "

If they were not saved, then Paul would have told them how to get saved. He certainly knew.

Why warn unbelievers that if they DO these things, they will miss the kingdom? They can abstain from all of these activities 'till the cows come home and still spend eternity in the LOF and never even get a whif of the Kingdom.

Lacy

My justification is not based on my works. I don't know where you conjured that up. My justification is solely based on the sacrificial blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I need not do a thing. If I had waited until 10 minutes before my death to accept the Lord Jesus Christ and was too weak to do a single thing for Him other than to thank Him for His sacrifice, I would be accepted into His kingdom.

Why put a yoke of bondage on those who accept Him early in life?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Check into ancient Jewish customs and you will in fact find that the groom did clothe the bride.

Why not just check into the Bible stories mentioned that show what happened, and let the scripture guide us?

lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The crown of righteousness is given to all who love His appearing. Those who are Christ's look for His appearing, they don't dread it.