Kingdom Exclusion

So we will be crowned, right along side Hitler, Stalin, Darwin and Nietzsche? Or do you think that there might be some qualification applied to this verse? Obviously every man shall have praise of God that is worthy of praise.

 

We have several bookshelves of commentaries, my husband and myself both being speakers in various churches and colleges on his work and our various fields of research. If you want to play games here, Barry was asked to a conference of Bible interpreters and the Broadmoor Hotel in Colorado Springs about four years ago where he discussed with them some of the errors he had found as a scientist in some of the modern translations. We teach in Christian schools and colleges the accuracy of Genesis 1-11 and have been asked to teach a course starting next week on the evidence for God in the Bible to a high school class.

Books we have here include those by Sidlow Baxter, who was a personal friend, along with his adorable wife, Isa, who died a couple of years ago. They include books by Francis Schaeffer, Ray Stedman, and many others. We have Jewish commentaries, KJVO commentaries, archaeological commentaries, scientific commentaries.

But the book we value most and read the most is the Bible. All commentaries are compared to that one.

In the meantime, some of the material we have written is free for your perusal on my husband's website: www.setterfield.org

Thank you.

 

I don't understand this quote. Does this mean that you believe or does this mean you see it, but you still don't want to believe even thought that's what Scripture says?

Again this doesn't make sense. You see that it is supported by Scripture, but you do not believe. Why is it you don't believe if you can see that Scripture says that it will be this way?

El Guero nobody will be in the kingdom and then cast into an eternal lake of fire at the end of it.

Those that rule and reign with Christ will not be cast into the lake of fire.

And the Bible tells us that this 1,000-year period is not going to be a bunch of kicks and giggles and aw shucks I should've done better when I had the chance type of stuff so break out the dominoes.

The question is why not be obedient now and do all that we are called, commanded, asked, encouraged, etc. to do now so that you don't have to go through a 1,000-year period of discipline? Why not do the things required to be placed as a first-born son so that you get to enjoy the inheritance that awaits instead of selling it for the flesh here and now like Esau did?

El Guero it seems as though you are seeing the kingdom and I pray the Lord will have mercy on your eyes and ears!

 

I do not think that you understand the Kingdom . . . .

 

Here are your scriptures:

1) By not suffering for Christ: Rom 8:16,17, 2 Thess 1:5, 2Tim 2:12

Rom 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2) By committing and continuing certain gross sins. 1 Cor 6:7-10, Gal 5:16-21, Eph 5:1-7, )

1Co 6:7-10 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (8) Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. (9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:16-21 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:1-7 Be ye therefore followers of God as dear children: (2) And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savor. (3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; (4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. (5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (6) Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (7) Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

 

3) By failing to overcoming self and sin: Rev 2:11, Rev 3:5, 3:11-12, 3:21, 2Pet2:20-22

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-12 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (12) Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

2Pe 2:21-22 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

4)By being unmerciful: Matt 5:7, Matt 6:14-15, Matt 18:33-35, Jas 2:13

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:30-35 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. (31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. (32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: (33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? (34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. (35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

5) By not continuing in the faith: Acts 14:22, John 8:31,32, John 15:4-6, Matt 10:38, Luke 22:28,29, 2 Peter 1:11.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Luk 22:29-30 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; (30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

That ought to keep you busy for a while. Just a challenge though: Read these verses and consider the possibility (that when they tell a believer to be good because the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom) that the verses mean exactly what they say.

Lacy

 

Although the ramifications of JSOC caught my attention early in my walk along with Rev 3, many mansions, and all general commandments and instructions of living righteously; I think this kingdom doctrine disregards the righteousness comes from being in the Spirit of Christ by belief and liberty is given not to be taught as a freedom to be disobedient but by faith in that ALL our sins have been paid for must never be discouraged by adding in the law, how often this was addressed, I feel, is being overlooked and the meaning of being free in Christ is being perverted.

I would ask you to place down the line so that we can all see where we can not cross thereby losing are ticket to the Kingdom.

Personally, in my conviction and love for Christ I cry out that through Him I will be made righteous in my weaknesses, for I know I am a sinner and I have no other options than to trust in Him; that is where my righteousness comes from and where I lie my faith and I praise God for it.

Frankly, I think this interpretation of the kingdom borders on being dangerous by leading back the law and apostasy type teachings away from faith. Reconciliation is by faith alone lest we should boast.

 

Then by all means please enlighten us to the correct understanding, because trust me I'm not in this to win a debate. I am only seeking God's Truth. So if you have the Truth then by all means share it with us.

 

Benjamin with all due respect this statement shows that you don't have a very good grasp of this teaching. The word of the kingdom does not teach that one must once again start sacrificing animals for their sin or that an animal sacrifice must be given one a year so that the nation's sin can be dealt with. Nowhere on this thread is there any mention of returning to the ceremonial law.

However the moral law has never been done away with and the NT is filled with exhortations to keep My commandments, etc.

And this teaching does not take people away from faith at all. This message is all about faith and how it is supposed to mix with your works to bring about salvation.

Here is where your confusion is coming from and where most people miss this when they are looking at it for the first time. You are trying to combine the teaching of eternal salvation or the gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom into the same message. They are different messages targeted to different people.

The gospel of grace is just as you said by faith alone in the finished works of Christ alone on my behalf a sinner. If one believes that they are saved (Eph. 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31).

However the gospel of the kingdom is the good news to those that are saved or those that are spiritually alive.

Hope that helps!

 

Great point!

 

With respect back your statement shows that you are still missing the message of the differences in the ministration of the Spirit and the role of faith, but we have been over this before. From what I’ve observed of your kingdom teaching it tries to combine the two wrongly; I’m not talking about animal sacrifices, I’m talking about how one is saved and it isn’t by lawful works however you care to classify it as it appears to me you are dividing the completed message of salvation to include works by adding the threat of the message of the kingdom.

Here is the problem in a nutshell, mixing in works “to bring about salvation.” And I disagree that this teaching doesn’t take away from faith and will maintain it is a dangerous teaching in that light.

Got news for you, I’m not confused in the least on this matter and it is far from the first time I’ve looked into it, I just vehemently disagree with the way some present it. There is only one Gospel and IMO your attempt to separate it with this dispensation is missing the big picture.

Like I noted before to you we are really not that far apart in considering the importance of being Spiritually alive in obedience although differ in how it should be taught, but I will also challenge you to draw that line we must not cross to show us when we will miss the ticket to the kingdom in your methods of separation.

In a believers love for Christ they will work out their salvation in trembling and fear believing in the Lord and repent by conviction of the Holy Spirit that they live in, it is not their works that will bring them into the Kingdom of God, that work is completed and is brought only in faith by the hope in Him.

A believer is consoled in Christ, comforted in the Holy Spirit, made righteous being taught in the Holy Spirit, which He gave to us by grace and in our faith and we should come to know that that we received that spirit of bondage to the Lord of our lives not to fear but in that adoption as children in that spirit we thereby cry out to our Father in our liberty as it is manifested to us how great His love for us is; as we grow in that love for Him we will be obedient, to teach we are brought into the Kingdom of God by our own works is what I would consider Apostasy.

(Heb 5:12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

Yes, I consider it dangerous and terribly wrong for one to teach that a saved person can lose his salvation and am always totally convicted by the Holy Spirit if I find myself in the position of dampening ones spirit of justified by faith as I don’t know when that person becomes a true saved believer. BTW, I don’t know about the others but I recently talked to a Methodist pastor overseeing more than 40 churches and he did not believe that a true believer, a truly saved person, could lose his salvation, ever!

I find this statement problematic to the hope in faith.

 

Benjamin,

I agree with this. Sanctification ultimately is all grace. We will cast any crowns we win down at Christ's feet acknowledging that any glory or measure of reward we attain to ultimately belongs to him.

But there is a practical side to sanctification, a side that we must work out. The Scripture is chock full of real warnings and real promises to real believers that have real conditions. This cannot be denied.

We agree (Forgive me, I assume) that a believer is subject to familial chastening based uopn his behavior. And I hope we agree that this in know way whatsoever affects his standing as a justified man.

Why is it so far fetched to make kingdom entrance conditional when other things like fellowship, long life, health, and joy, are conditional. Especially when practically every time you see Kingdom entrance mentioned there are conditions, warnings and promises?

Lacy

 

Oops, I was logged in under my son's name.

Sorry, Lacy

Log off, Log back on

Bye bye

 

James Newman quote
--------------------------------
So we will be crowned, right along side Hitler, Stalin, Darwin and Nietzsche? Or do you think that there might be some qualification applied to this verse? Obviously every man shall have praise of God that is worthy of praise.
------------------------------------

Paul is talking to christian stewards here about the judgement seat of Christ. I doubt Hitler will be there

 

Can you show me "truly saved person" in the Bible? Most people that I know who use that term are either espousing Lordship salvation ("Well, if you are really and truly saved, then he will be Lord in your life!) or, they are talking about some other form of works based salvation, whether to earn, to keep, or to prove your salvation.

As to there being only one gospel in the Bible, would you care to prove that? It seems that my Bible shows more than one.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of [the] heaven is at hand.

The gospel of spiritual salvation is simple: Believe and you will be saved. The gospel of the Kingdom is not so simple: It requires you to do stuff.

One you can lose and one you cannot.

John 3:3 says that unless you're born from above you will not see the Kingdom. (Saved)

John 3:5 says that unless you're born of water and spirit, you will not enter the Kingdom. (Participation, based upon doing something.)

 

Not at all. You are trying to combine two messages and then telling me I'm missing the point. The gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom are not the same gospel. If they are in fact as you claim the same message then how to get around the contradiction that James places on faith alone without works, because James said faith alone will not save you.

I am interested to hear how salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God, but at the same time is something that can be inherited. And the rich young ruler was said to be able to inherit the kingdom by selling all his goods.

Do you see how many contradictions there are when the gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom are combined into one message. I could list more.

See that statement right there shows you don't know what you are talking about because this is the teaching that separates the gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom as Scripture does.

I know you didn't mention animal sacrifices, but you said that we were trying to bring people back under the law, and sacrifices is the only part of the law that some has been set free from that they could be brought back under.

And again we are not adding works to eternal salvation. Again your mis-statement shows that you really don't understand what is being discussed.

Eternal salvation is by God's grace alone through faith alone in the finished works of Christ. That's it. Nothing else.

Works ONLY come into play AFTER a person is eternally saved. There is no combining of messges. There is NO mixing faith and works to get eternal salvation.

Becuase the Bible says we are to WORK out our salvation. Contextually we know this is not eternal salvation, because that is not something man can work for, so the context is of a different kind of salvation.

That is the salvation I'm speaking of, because that is the salvation Scripture speaks of and it's the salvation for the coming age. And the next age in human history will be the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

And again I will say that you don't completely understand, because this message in no way takes away from faith. It has been repeatedly said that God's grace through faith alone is the ONLY way to eternal salvation. So how can you say we are diminshing faith?

Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that point, because you show your confusion by your statements and accusations that aren't even close to reality.

And the bible clearly denies that claim. There is the gospel of grace. There is the gospel of Christ. There is Paul's gospel he refers to as my gospel. There's the gospel of the kingdom. There is more than one gospel.

Again we are not separating the gospel. We are just allowing Scripture to say what Scripture says.

Unfortunately the Bible does not back up the claims that all Christians will continue to love Christ until the die. It does not back up the claim that all Christians will work out their salvation with fear and trembling. It doesn't say that all Christians will repent.

It does say that our works are what gets us into the kingdom over and over and over again.

Again you speak of the kingdom and eternal salvation in the same sentence. Is your salvation a hope in that you may or may not be saved? I don't hope I'm saved. I know I am saved.

My hope is in Christ that I will be transformed into His image from glory to glory. But a hope is something that may or may not happen. I hope I will rule and reign with Christ, but I may not.

Again with all due respect we are not to base what we are to live by by what Benjamin says, but what the Bible says. And the Bible says that we will enter the kingdom based on our obedience to Christ and His commandments. So am I to believe you or am I to believe Scripture?

As I have said before in another post. If this teaching is so completely wrong then please show me what the correct teaching on the kingdom is because I'm not out to win a debate. I am seeking God's Truth. And if you have it please share it.