Kingdom Rule

[michael-acts17:11]

One of the problems with your position is that it could be inferred that prior to AD 70, the time that you think the Kingdom started and Jesus returned to rule and reign is that from Adam until AD70 Jehovah was not the total sovereign of the universe or at best not exercising that power. I would argue that God is and always has been the all powerful sovereign and is immersed in every detail of creation. The kingdom of Christ is something different and believe it or not the Bible gives us a lot of details about that kingdom, most of those details are not evident to this observer.

Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of a covenant of grace or works or redemption. While it is true that redemption is available to sinful man and grace is the means by which we receive redemption, the Bible does not teach that Jehovah made any covenant of grace/works/redemtion. If there were such a covenant you would be pointing out this covenant and also educating me on just exactly how you are keeping that covenant. Also, I noticed that you are not spelling out how you personally keep the commandments of God either. Why, shy?

Have you never read Hebrews? The entire book is a description of the New Covenant. If you do not believe in the Covenant described therein, then to what is the writer referring, if not to a literal Covenant between God and man?

 

[kyredneck]

One of the problems with your position is that it could be inferred that prior to AD 70, the time that you think the Kingdom started....

We have the testimony of TWO concerning WHEN the Kingdom started:

1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 3

17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4

16 The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it. Lu 16

 

[michael-acts17:11]

We have the testimony of TWO concerning WHEN the Kingdom started:

1 And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying,
2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 3

17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4

You have to use your handy dandy dispy decoder ring to understand that "is at hand" is code for "thousands of years from now.

 

[kyredneck]

Oh really? They have a decoder ring now? I'm still stuck back in the old days with all the charts, diagrams, and manuals.

I gotta get me one of those rings....

 

[timf]

Do you believe this? Or do you believe this is somehow not true right now?

Sounds like you are inviting someone to take the bait.

Some are waiting for a future earthly Kingdom as if we are not to serve now...

Like gang members on a street corner the challenge in joined and the ante is "upped".

I don't understand your arrogance and ignorance in that statement. No one I know that believes in a future millenial kingdom says that you are not to serve here. That statement is ludicrous, no offense.

The bait is taken

Wow, you and HOS kinda follow each other around don't you? Seems when one of you posts the other one's not far behind. Both characters are abrasive, like a troll.

Having been able to flush out someone to attack, the game is afoot.

Are you being intentionally contrary for it's own sake???
what then is the point of this thread???

The quarry begins to see the trap.

As an observer here and having seen thousands of posts over many years I can say that there are those who seek combat as if the emotional surge of self-righteousness produced a narcotic effect. I hope what I have read on this thread is just bad manners and not indicative of the deeper problem of cyber bullies.

I have had a discussion with Van on this subject on another thread and even thought we were not able to persuade each other of our different positions, I think that we were able to keep our conversation more civil.

At some point we need to ask ourselves if our conversation is honoring to our Savior.

 

[Bronconagurski]

"At some point we need to ask ourselves if our conversation is honoring to our Savior. "

If that happened, we wouldn't have a lot to read here. So why don't we just shut it down? Nothing ever gets settled.

 

[thomas15]

Have you never read Hebrews? The entire book is a description of the New Covenant. If you do not believe in the Covenant described therein, then to what is the writer referring, if not to a literal Covenant between God and man?

The new covenant mentioned in Hebrews is detailed in Jeremiah, 31:31-40. Have you ever read Jeremiah 31? I didn't think so.

 

[Luke2427]

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18 To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

19 The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.


God reigns from heaven now....from the throne and is mindful of those who are covenant keepers.

Do you believe this? Or do you believe this is somehow not true right now?

Yes.

This truth is the sole paradigm by which we are able to understand the New Testament (the whole Bible for that matter) and most especially our duty before God- the Great Commission.

 

[percho]

Luke 16:16 the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into

Matt 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
Matt 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive. (The end of the age verse 3? The age of what?)

1 Cor 15:50 And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (that which is subject to death) the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption (that which is subject to death and has died.) inherit the incorruption;
Luke 20:35,36 but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, (The age following the end of this age?) and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; for neither are they able to die any more (No longer subject to corruption) -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' Luke 18:16,17 and Jesus having called them near, said, `Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the reign of God; verily I say to you, Whoever may not receive the reign of God as a little child, may not enter into it.' John 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

Are the called out ones subject to the laws of and rule of God? Without a doubt.

However they have not been born into the kingdom yet and neither is the kingdom age present upon the earth at this time. IMHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

kyredneck

Another really good post..with several helpful verses.

And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Lu 9

Daily....seems to be one main puzzle piece.

1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah`s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
6 But ye shall be named the priests of Jehovah; men shall call you the ministers of our God: ye shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. Isa 61

This and several other texts from the OT...are solid indicators of what and how we are to function as ...as the Holy Nation....of Kings and priests.
So many of the OT prophecies can and do speak to us right now if we let them.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19

The shadow of the Holy nation

4 unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God`s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul;
12 having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 1 Pet 2

The Nt fulfillment....Christian Israel...the reality.

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Ro 12

This is a core teaching on our sacrifices as believer priests

13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification. Ro 6

free from sin...free to serve:thumbs:

11 Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:
13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2

Part of the covenant language that God's people come to understand, God's loyal love.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. Ro 5

federal headship.....alive In Christ only
5

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1

This clearly sounds like it is part of the already!

9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth. Rev 5

Looks like the reign is on earth.....it just depends on who has the right prophetic calendar as to how the reign manifests.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20

Here the saints are said to reign with Jesus...it does not say they reign on earth ,like those who have not left their body yet, however.
While it is possible....the text does not specify

5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.
7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22

For sure all saints overcome by the blood of the Lamb...the "sending" of the angel[vs6] seems to indicate they are sent to us who are still here, before we leave our physical body.

 

[Iconoclast]

thomas15

One of the problems with your position is that it could be inferred that prior to AD 70, the time that you think the Kingdom started

While God is the eternal King....he has spoken of the establishing of His eternal reign in time...with the elect entering the Kingdom...in real time.
I personally believe the Kingdom really begins with The truimphal entry and many rejecting the King....who in response has prepared the Apostles to set forth the foundation of the christian Israel...the church.
And not just...a church age...as I was previously led to believe....but the beginning of the reign of the heavens...coming to earth that is consumated on the last day.1cor15

and Jesus returned to rule and reign

I do not believe Jesus returned in Ad 70....I think He came in judgement like many times in the OT.

I would argue that God is and always has been the all powerful sovereign and is immersed in every detail of creation

.

Well Thomas...do not get upset but I agree with you here.:thumbs:

The kingdom of Christ is something different and believe it or not the Bible gives us a lot of details about that kingdom, most of those details are not evident to this observer

.

Well the details are there and evident....we differ on when and how they are implemented

Nowhere in the Bible is there mention of a covenant of grace or works or redemption.

You alone believe this.Certain words and theological terms are not there , but the teaching is. It seems as if you do not really want to dialog seriously about this topic.

While it is true that redemption is available to sinful man and grace is the means by which we receive redemption, the Bible does not teach that Jehovah made any covenant of grace/works/redemtion.

It is only the covenant that provides for the grace of God in salvation.Man would not have been created unless Jesus was to already be appointed as mediator of the covenant before the world was.

If there were such a covenant you would be pointing out this covenant and also educating me on just exactly how you are keeping that covenant. Also, I noticed that you are not spelling out how you personally keep the commandments of God either. Why, shy?

I do not think the Op was about that.You do not believe in the in covenants of promise so why would i address you on it. You are set to resist. if in the future I can help you on it ...i would.:thumbs:

All of the rest of the church and saints who went before us believed this so I will stay with them and other like minded brothers.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hos,

This is a strong verse of scripture and I agree there should not be much in the way of debate.
I am trying to draw out responses as to how we are to rule and reign as Kings and Priests here and now.

He says ...receiving a kingdom....the fact that it is here and now where do we see it's authority?

In the church?
"" " home?
" ' job?
" " school?
" " the nations?

We as christian Israel are not the OT theocracy...and yet...we are as believers theocratic. I am trying to work through these ideas for the last several years.

Some times only the theonomy guys, or the christian reconstruction guys speak of this. I think they go too far,and yet I do not see much discussion in christian circles. People look at the verses..read them, do nothing, and then go to work the next day.

I think we are to fully serve the Lord each day....not just huddled up in the church meeting, but affecting the world for the Kingdom's sake as we are called to this.


To expand a bit.....do you believe that Hebrews 2 speaks of our taking Kingdom dominion over the earth?



This is a quote from psalm 8.....now being repeated after the cross...what does it mean in real terms to us?

What do you have on this HOS? How do these verses impact your worldview, if at all?

AHA!!!!! Thanks for explaining the intent of your thread! It's a great question and discussion to have indeed! :wavey: (I'll have to look up the definitions of "theonomy guys" and "christian reconstruction guys") but, I would love to get back with you on this, and hear what you have learned or come to believe about these things.

 

[kyredneck]

23 And he said unto all, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Lu 9 ...

Daily....seems to be one main puzzle piece.

...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro 10:9

What do you think; is this a 'one time event', or is it to be done daily?

A formula/incantation to be performed only once and then SHAZAAM, IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED? Or a way of life?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro 10:9

What do you think; is this a 'one time event', or is it to be done daily?

A formula/incantation to be performed only once and then SHAZAAM, IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED? Or a way of life?

The next verse answers your question.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation is a one time event.

 

[kyredneck]

The next verse answers your question.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

No, it doesn't answer the question.

Salvation is a one time event.

.....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12,13

Regeneration, i.e. the birth from above, is a 'one time event'. Salvation is an on going affair throughout the believer's life.

 

[Iconoclast]

AHA!!!!! Thanks for explaining the intent of your thread! It's a great question and discussion to have indeed! :wavey: (I'll have to look up the definitions of "theonomy guys" and "christian reconstruction guys") but, I would love to get back with you on this, and hear what you have learned or come to believe about these things.

Hos


Theonomy and reconstruction guys;

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbs/tarba.htm


http://www.forerunner.com/theonomy/theofaq.html

 

[Iconoclast]

...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved Ro 10:9

What do you think; is this a 'one time event', or is it to be done daily?

A formula/incantation to be performed only once and then SHAZAAM, IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED? Or a way of life?

Hello Kyred,

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life

As God saves His people from their sins...they continue on being conformed to the image of the Son.
What i am trying to slowly focus in on is as we are saved from our sins, how does it manifest itself in terms of the gospel of ....THE KINGDOM.

22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

There is a distinct emphasis not on salvation only....they spoke of the Kingdom of God as a main part of the message.I am thinking we do not follow this pattern as much as we should, possibly because of wrong end time views.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

When i read the postmill writers I see a consistent desire to extend the Kingdom worldwide in fulfillment of psalm8/hebrews 2;

Here is Ken Gentry-

Ken Gentry.Postmillenialism made easy

pg10-
What is more, our good God not only created all things good, but he
created man in his image (Gen 1:26–27; cp. Gen 9:6). An important aspect
of the multi-faceted image of God in man is man’s reflecting God’s dominion
over creation. We see this emphasized when God declared that
he would create man in his image: “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in
Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the
sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the
earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth’” (Gen 1:26).
Thus, the image of the creator God, which is emphasized in the context
of the creation process itself, involves man’s authority to exercise rule
over the rest of creation. Man was created to rule the world to the glory of
God.
Later in Scripture worship-song, David swells with praise when reflects
on God’s creating man with such authority over creation:
What is man, that Thou dost take thought of him? / And the son of man,
that Thou dost care for him? / Yet Thou hast made him a little lower than
God, / And dost crown him with glory and majesty! / Thou dost make him
to rule over the works of Thy hands; / Thou hast put all things under his
feet, / All sheep and oxen, / And also the beasts of the field, / The birds
of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, / Whatever passes through the
paths of the seas. / O Lord, our Lord, / How majestic is Thy name in all
the earth! (Psa 8:4-9).
David was humbled by the fact of God’s creating man and commissioning
him to exercise dominion.
We must understand that at the very beginning God does not create
man as possessing the image of God — as if it were an added quality which
man could lose. He does not imbue man with his image by bestowing it
on him after his creation. Rather God creates man as his image, so that
man is inherently the image of God by definition. God’s image constitutes
the very nature of man as man. From the very beginning man is the image
of God. Thus, God created man to reflect (on a creaturely level) God’s
own creative power and rulership authority over the world. And man remains
God’s image even after his fall into sin, for we read later of fallen
man: “Whoever sheds man/s blood, / By man his blood shall be shed, / For
in the image of God / He made man” (Gen 9:6). Psalm 8 also shows that
man’s call to dominion remains after the fall. Of course, we should expect
this since man inherently is God’s image.

 

[Iconoclast]

And again here:
God is deeply i nterested in and committed to the physical world and the
historical process:
(1) He sovereignly and purposely created the objective, material
world in which we live (Gen 1; Psa 33:6–11).
(2) He lovingly and carefully
formed our physical bodies for dwelling in this world (Gen 2:7–24), which he has
entrusted to us (Psa 8:1–9; 115:16).
(3) He created man in his image for the
express purpose of subduing material creation as his high calling in history (Gen
1:26–27).
(4) He brought his objective, propositional revelation to us through the
historical process of inspiration and inscripturation by means of men moved by
the Spirit of God (2 Tim 3:16–17; 2 Pet 1:20–21).
(5) In the Second Person of the
Trinity, God took upon himself a true human body and soul (which he still possesses,
Col 2:9) and entered history for the purpose of redeeming men and women
back to a right relationship with him (Rom 1:3; 9:5; Heb 2:14).
(6) His elect people
will inherit the eternal estate in resurrected, physical bodies (John 5:28–29; 1 Cor
15:20–28) so that we might dwell in a material new creation order(2 Pet 3:8–13).

So we see that God created man as a dominion creature who is commissioned
with the “cultural mandate” (Gen 1:26) to subdue the earth to
the glory of God. The question arises then: Will man subdue the earth to
God’s glory as God intended? That is, will God’s creational purpose for
man be realized — in history? Postmillennialism declares that it will.
As an optimistic eschatology postmillennialism seeks the transformation
of all human culture for God’s glory. Postmillennialism is strongly
committed to the fact that “the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains, /
The world, and those who dwell in it” (Psa 24:1). This declaration is a
constant refrain throughout Scripture, as we see in Exodus 9:29; 19:5;
Leviticus 25:23; Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Samuel 2:8; 1 Chronicles 29:11,
14; Job 41:11; Psalm 50:12; 89:11; 104:24; and 1 Cor 10:26. Postmillennialism
embodies a Bible-based, world-encompassing outlook — a truly
Christian worldview. In fact, it establishes an optimistic worldview confidently
expecting God’s promise will come true: “indeed, as I live, all the
earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord” (Num 14:21). We may trace
the roots of this optimistic worldview back to the very creation accoun

t.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hos


Theonomy and reconstruction guys;

http://www.reformedreader.org/rbs/tarba.htm


http://www.forerunner.com/theonomy/theofaq.html

HMMMM............can't QUITE do it....Even though I am in 95% agreement with them. They speak a lot about this being only the result of the personal result of God being the one who individually governs the lives of a regenerate person....but, from what I read....they seem to speak a little too much about "creedalism" for the church, and it frightens me. My own father-in-Law knows Rushdoony quite well as he was a major witness in some court-cases in Nebraska about Church-Schooling and what-not...
My father-in-law was the associate pastor of the Baptist Church the State shut-down..........
But, I am thinking I have to break just a tad from them here....and I REALLY only mean a "TAD".

For one....this is obviously a "Reformed-Only" kind of group....
and Second: They speak a little too much of creedalism to me

Except for that...I agree with them completely...
Somehow or another, this is also a "Dispensationalist vs. Pre-terist" thread....which I have no interest in discussing....except that it seems that the "Pre-terist" or at least "A-Millenial" side of the equation has a view about this which is inextricably related....

Truth is...your "Theonomy and reconstruction guys"......would get a ton more traction if they weren't (seemingly) so indebted to their eschatology. I otherwise agree with them...that, and their tendency towards "creedalism"....Good questions though. :thumbs: :type: What do you say????