KJV and the modern versions

[Amy.G]

I was concerned of that.

It's both sad and weird.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EdSutton,remarkable post! Thanks for all that solid information and flawless logic which will be dismissed by some here by virtue of their fiat.

GE:
Ed Sutton, have you perhaps published a readily available book on any of your viewpoints? And if, how can I get it? (I hope the print is big.)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE:
Ed Sutton, have you perhaps published a readily available book on any of your viewpoints? And if, how can I get it? (I hope the print is big.)

HP: I wonder if he has added in any footnotes for the logically minded that could explain in clear detail, (in terms hopefully more in keeping with the scientific facts of gravity) how that dead believers in the grave, (at least north of the equator:laugh: ) could possibly be seen as falling out of their graves. :wavey:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Does everybody have 'EdSutton' and 'Ed Edwards' straight?

Ed Edwards

EdSutton

 

[gb93433]

NIV error about Lucifer:


From the NIV:
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

In the real Old Testament Isaiah, The massoretic text of the King James version, Satan is never called morning star; Satan is called Lucifer. The modern bible versions put morning star there because of the theology of the translators. It does not come from the original Hebrew scriptures and morning star is a mistranslation.
The original Hebrew in the massoretic text is Helel ben shachar, which is accurately translated Lucifer, son of the morning in the King James version bible.
The modern translations give a name as if the Hebrew was Shachar kokab, ben shakar, or morning star son of the morning (dawn).

[FONT=&quot]CXXVIII. Mishnah-Tractate Shabbat 23:2

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Further Exegesis of “How are you you fallen from heaven, day star, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground, you who cast lots [the same word as occurs here] over the nations” (Isa. 14:12)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. [“How are you you fallen from heaven, day star, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground, you who cast lots [the same word as occurs here] over the nations” (Isa. 14:12):] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Said Rabbah bar R. Huna, “This teaches that he cast lots over all the eminent men of the kingdom to find out which of them should be his mome for the day.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B. And it is written, “All the kings of the nations, all of them sleep in glory” (Isa. 14:18).[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]C. Said R. Yohanan, “They got some rest from his sodomy.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. And said R. Yohanan, “Throughout the entire life of that wicked man, nobody ever laughed, as it is said, ‘The whole world is at rest and is quiet, they break[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]forth into singing’ (Isa. 14: 7), meaning, up to then there was no singing.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. And said R. Isaac said R. Yohanan, “One may not stand in that wicked man’s[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]palace: ‘And satyrs shall dance there’ (Isa. 14:21).”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. And said R. Judah said Rab, “When that wicked man [Nebuchadnezzar] wanted to abuse that righteous one, Zedekiah, in such a way [in an act of sodomy], his penis stood erect for three hundred cubits and wagged in front of the whole assembly of captive kings, for it is said, ‘You are filled with shame for glory, drink you also, and be as one uncircumcised,’ and the numerical value of that last word is three hundred.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. And said R. Judah said Rab, “When that wicked man descended into Gehenna, all those who had come down there before him trembled, saying, ‘Does he come to rule over us or to be as weak as we are?’ ‘Also are you become weak as we? Or are you to rule over us?’ (Isa. 14:10). An echo came forth and said, ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty? go down and be you laid with the uncircumcised’ (Eze. 32:19).”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.9 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. “How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased” (Isa. 14: 4) — B. Said R. Judah said Rab, “This nation has ceased that said [/FONT][FONT=&quot][150A][/FONT][FONT=&quot], ‘Measure out tribute and bring it to us.’”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]C. Others say, “That demanded, ‘Bring more and more without measure.’”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. “And excellent greatness was added to me” (Dan. 4:36) — B. Said R. Judah said R. Jeremiah bar Abba, “This teaches that [Nebuchadnezzar] rode on a male lion, on the head of which he tied a snake as reins, in line with this verse: ‘And the beasts of the field also have I given him to serve him’ (Jer. 27: 6).”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[EdSutton]

Does everybody have 'EdSutton' and 'Ed Edwards' straight?

Ed Edwards

EdSutton

Apparently not.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry Ed and Ed. I cannot edit the post it as it has been too long to do so. I was out of pocket for a while. Please forgive me. It was indeed an error on my part.

 

[EdSutton]

[FONT=&quot]CXXVIII. Mishnah-Tractate Shabbat 23:2

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Further Exegesis of “How are you you fallen from heaven, day star, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground, you who cast lots [the same word as occurs here] over the nations” (Isa. 14:12)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. [“How are you you fallen from heaven, day star, son of the morning? How are you cut down to the ground, you who cast lots [the same word as occurs here] over the nations” (Isa. 14:12):] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Said Rabbah bar R. Huna, “This teaches that he cast lots over all the eminent men of the kingdom to find out which of them should be his mome for the day.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]B. And it is written, “All the kings of the nations, all of them sleep in glory” (Isa. 14:18).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]C. [Deleted by me, due to inappropriate material.] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A. And said R. Yohanan, “Throughout the entire life of that wicked man, nobody ever laughed, as it is said, ‘The whole world is at rest and is quiet, they break[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]forth into singing’ (Isa. 14: 7), meaning, up to then there was no singing.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]III.6, 7, 8, 9, 10. [/FONT][Deleted by me, due to inappropriate material.]

Was this post #365 really necessary, or even germane to the topic??

Ed

 

[antiaging]

As noted previously Burton is a liar. I have the book in my office. It is a joke. Furthermore, for people trying to corrupt the Bible, they sure did a bad job of it. These were the most inept corrupters of a text that have ever been known. What a testimony to the power of God, that he preserved his word so magnificently from the hands of these intentional corrupters.

See what Dean Burgon had to say about the Hort Westcott text, which is very similar (almost identical) to the Nestle-Aland text which is used today for many new versions.
See the evidence he presents against the vaticanus and sinaiticus manuscripts.
Go to this website:
Read down the page.
The evidence that the byzantine majority text is the real new testament text, is very great. The evidence is against vaticanus and sinaiticus. --so the evidence is also against the nestle-aland and united bible society texts and the evidence is against the modern versions translated from them.

http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/dbs2695.htm

 

[antiaging]

Right; if speculations of Gnostic corruptions of surviving Bible manuscripts are correct, those Gnostics did an awful job. Those ancient manuscripts have readings which are very unfavorable to Gnostic teachings.

Notice that when it was shown to Antiaging that not all the ancient manuscripts came from Egypt at all, he proposes this novel idea that the Gnostic corruptions occurred at Rome. Never mind that we do not know if any of the surviving manuscripts were made at Rome; Codex Vaticanus may have been made somewhere else in Europe and only later came to Rome.

He also does not have anything about other ancient manuscripts found in Europe. Further, he has not a thing to say about the ancient manuscript from Asia.

He did not answer if he thinks that every one of the dozens of papyrus manuscripts from c. 100, the second century, and third century were made by Gnostics. I think it would be ludicrous to assert that every single one of those manuscripts were made by Gnostics. Yet I do not doubt that he would assert that.

Antiaging keeps referring us back to Barry Burton's "Let's Weigh the Evidence" which is a book with little evidence but much speculation and impassioned rhetoric. It has been shown to him that the `funny Kool Aid' he is taking in has lethal problems against verified reality. His stretching, his speculating, his shifting around suggests to me that we are discussing this subject with an individual who is determined to believe what s/he has decided to regardless of where the evidence points.

Here, I'll refer to something else about ancient manuscripts.
See what Dean Burgon had to say about them.
http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/dbs2695.htm

 

[antiaging]

Unfortunately, it's not. Search on antiaging's past posts and you'll see. I THINK he even mentions it in this thread, but I could be mistaken.

Oh - and he believes Noah's Ark was a spaceship piloted by angels.

You are either mistaken about that or worse.

I did not ever say such a silly thing as that.
I said, I believe that the modern day ufos that men see and film are probably piloted by God's angels. Modern day ufos resemble the chariots of fire, wheel within a wheel, and cloudlike pilar seen by the prophets and Paul in the Bible.

Noah's ark was a floating vessel made of wood, guided by God as it floated along. No propeller, no sail, possibly no rudder; none is mentioned.

I'll mention this again; believe whatever you like.

I speak on what I have seen evidence of.

 

[gb93433]

The evidence that the byzantine majority text is the real new testament text, is very great. The evidence is against vaticanus and sinaiticus. --so the evidence is also against the nestle-aland and united bible society texts and the evidence is against the modern versions translated from them.

If one uses the majority text method to substantiate a text makes about as much sense as saying that because the majority of the world are not Christians therefore Christianity is a false religion.

 

[gb93433]

Was this post #365 really necessary, or even germane to the topic??

Ed

It was in response to another post which illustrated poor hermeneutics.

 

[Darron Steele]

Here, I'll refer to something else about ancient manuscripts.
See what Dean Burgon had to say about them.
http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/dbs2695.htm

That is an article by D. A. Waite. It says so explicitly.

Dean Burgon did not write that article.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darron Steele: That is an article by D. A. Waite. It says so explicitly.

Dean Burgon did not write that article.

HP: Even a precursor reading of that article would show any honest reader many quotes by Burgon. One could rightfully point to that article as one setting forth what Burgon had to say. What is your point DS??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by antiaging
Antiaging: The evidence that the byzantine majority text is the real new testament text, is very great. The evidence is against vaticanus and sinaiticus. --so the evidence is also against the nestle-aland and united bible society texts and the evidence is against the modern versions translated from them.

HP: You fail to understand the rules invoked by many on this list, i.e., reason, logic and evidence is only allowed IF in fact it supports the texts used by modern versions. All other evidence and logic is simply irrelevant and only serves to support ancient myths, divide the Church, and lead others astray.

 

[antiaging]

That is an article by D. A. Waite. It says so explicitly.

Dean Burgon did not write that article.

Read further down into the article.
It is D. A. Waite commenting on what Dean Burgon and other scholars said.
Several quotes by Dean Burgon are in the article.

 

[antiaging]

HP: You fail to understand the rules invoked by many on this list, i.e., reason, logic and evidence is only allowed IF in fact it supports the texts used by modern versions. All other evidence and logic is simply irrelevant and only serves to support ancient myths, divide the Church, and lead others astray.

divide the church and lead others astray

There are people doing that, in these days of apostacy leading up to the reign of the antichrist.
Destroying the faith in God's Word is a sure way of causing apostacy.

Psalms 11:3 If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Martin Luther
(1483-1546) (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers," Vol. 2, pg. 121 by Froom.

"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from "Institutes" by John Calvin.

Thomas Cranmer
(1489-1556) (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from "Works" by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

John Wesley
(1703-1791) (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from "Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms" by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Roger William
(1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He called the Pope "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vessals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to changed times and laws: but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)."

You can add to those names these men that believed the same sort of thing.
Wycliff, Tyndale, Sir Isaac Newton, Fox, Finney, Moody, Spurgeon.

Robert Stewart--
My investigations revealed that the joint UBS/Nestle-Aland Editorial
Committee was presided over by the renowned Jesuit named Carlo Maria
Martini, Cardinal Archbishop of Milan (the largest Roman Catholic
diocese in the world), President of the Council of European Bishops,
former Rector of the Pontifical Biblical Institute, "Rector
Magnificus" of the Gregorian University,
the modern Bibles had deserted the traditional New Testament text of
the Greek speaking churches and had, instead, introduced rare and
peculiar readings of a handful of obscure manuscripts, primarily (but
not exclusively) Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

These minority readings, chosen from various sources, had been
introduced into the modern UBS/Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament text
under the supervision of the most prominent Roman Catholic Greek
Scholar in the world.

Do you happen to see conspiracy by the antichrist system in the introduction of the modern versions. I surely see it.

Summary:
It seems like they want people to turn away from God's true Word and start obeying Rome.

 

[Askjo]

That is an article by D. A. Waite. It says so explicitly.

Dean Burgon did not write that article.

I have a few of Dean's books and found that he wrote against W/H's interests.

 

[Askjo]

Read further down into the article.
It is D. A. Waite commenting on what Dean Burgon and other scholars said.
Several quotes by Dean Burgon are in the article.

All I can say is "Agree!"