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KJV-Onlyism Commentary
- Thread starter Jason Gastrich
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
DHK---------------------------------------------------------------
Today we have copies, and translations, both of which have minor
mistakes, none of which affect doctrine.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Askjo: "Incorrect. Translations messed up with the doctrines.
Modern versions affected any doctrines."
Hundreds of posts in the Version forum.
Hundereds of days of hundreds of posts.
So far nobody has shown proof positive that there
is any doctrine that exists that cannot be proved
in the KJV as well as some MVs.
In fact, the KJV has the lead on being the source of incorrect doctrines.
Brother DHKs statement is correct.
Minor errors (admited by some KJVOs to exist in the KJV1611 that
needed respelling in the KJV1769) does not make a document inerrant -
the minor errors are in the woring, not in the meaning.
All Bibles (different translations) have various wordings, but
NOT various meanings. There is one GOOD NEWS, one written word of God
in meaning; many wordings called versions. PErsonally i prefer the
Good News for the English speaker of the 21st Century (2001-2100):
The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
The Holman Christian Standard Bible
Psalms 12:6 (HCSB)
The words of the Lord are pure words,
like silver refined in an earthen furnace,
purified seven times.
Amen!
Today we have copies, and translations, both of which have minor
mistakes, none of which affect doctrine.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Askjo: "Incorrect. Translations messed up with the doctrines.
Modern versions affected any doctrines."
Hundreds of posts in the Version forum.
Hundereds of days of hundreds of posts.
So far nobody has shown proof positive that there
is any doctrine that exists that cannot be proved
in the KJV as well as some MVs.
In fact, the KJV has the lead on being the source of incorrect doctrines.
Brother DHKs statement is correct.
Minor errors (admited by some KJVOs to exist in the KJV1611 that
needed respelling in the KJV1769) does not make a document inerrant -
the minor errors are in the woring, not in the meaning.
All Bibles (different translations) have various wordings, but
NOT various meanings. There is one GOOD NEWS, one written word of God
in meaning; many wordings called versions. PErsonally i prefer the
Good News for the English speaker of the 21st Century (2001-2100):
The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB).
The Holman Christian Standard Bible
Psalms 12:6 (HCSB)
The words of the Lord are pure words,
like silver refined in an earthen furnace,
purified seven times.
Amen!
God gave us the KJV in our mother tongue; God gave all the world accurate Bible for their mother tongue as read Romans 16:26. </font>[/QUOTE]Askjo,
You must be a very eccentric person indeed if your mother language is 17th century English. I would dearly like to hear you talk. Would you please re-write your post in your mother tongue (KJV English--1611 edition). As God gave you the KJV in your mother tongue, as you say, this should be no problem for you.
I await your response.
DHK
--------------------------------------------------
God doesn't make errors. Man does. If man in his own fallibility, carelessness, or even deliberate biasness chooses to make mistakes, is that the fault of God. Do you blame God for man's mistakes? If I translate the Gospel of John (and I believe I can), and make a mistake doing so, does that make it any less the Word of God? Not at all. God doesn't inspire me, nor my words, nor my translation. His words have already been preserved in the Hebrew and Greek. I just use them to make my own translation. The same held true for the KJV translators. You have taken this case so far that you almost worship a translation. There are mistakes in the KJV. Admit it. Is there such a thing as a unicorn? No. The animal was a wild ox. Unicorns belong to Greek mythology. Mistakes galore. I can point out many more of them if you are open to them.
--------------------------------------------------
Please acquaint yourself with Psalm 12, and various other scriptures concerning the scriptures themselves, and then tell me I can only find them in Greek and Hebrew. Sorry, God has providence concering his word of truth. If God can sustain my life, by the air I breath, He most certainly and assuredly provides also the word of life for my well being and spiritual health. My faith is not only backed up by the scriptures themselves, but the evidence that I have them and can believe them. The evidence is staring many of you in the face, and you clearly do not see it.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
God doesn't make errors. Man does. If man in his own fallibility, carelessness, or even deliberate biasness chooses to make mistakes, is that the fault of God. Do you blame God for man's mistakes? If I translate the Gospel of John (and I believe I can), and make a mistake doing so, does that make it any less the Word of God? Not at all. God doesn't inspire me, nor my words, nor my translation. His words have already been preserved in the Hebrew and Greek. I just use them to make my own translation. The same held true for the KJV translators. You have taken this case so far that you almost worship a translation. There are mistakes in the KJV. Admit it. Is there such a thing as a unicorn? No. The animal was a wild ox. Unicorns belong to Greek mythology. Mistakes galore. I can point out many more of them if you are open to them.
--------------------------------------------------
Please acquaint yourself with Psalm 12, and various other scriptures concerning the scriptures themselves, and then tell me I can only find them in Greek and Hebrew. Sorry, God has providence concering his word of truth. If God can sustain my life, by the air I breath, He most certainly and assuredly provides also the word of life for my well being and spiritual health. My faith is not only backed up by the scriptures themselves, but the evidence that I have them and can believe them. The evidence is staring many of you in the face, and you clearly do not see it.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Wait a minute! God preserved His words. </font>[/QUOTE]So nitpicky!
Matthew 13
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. (Mark 4 confirms the repeated use of the singular "word" in this parable)
Mark 2
2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
Luke 1
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
There's plenty more examples but this should suffice.
http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3056
BTW, one should put Romans 16:26 in context:
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
You done it now, Ed. He's going to post another essay!
http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/nodoctrine.html
You may wish to go ahead and prepare your defense!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
In this semtemce
of yours, to whom
do you think "His" refers? Some people
elsewhere are having problems resolving
pronouns in their scriptures. Your answer
would help us all. Thank you.
I have. The question is, Have you acquainted yourself with Psalm 12?
Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
Psalms 12:7-8 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Yes I have studied Psalm 12, but apparently you have not. You take a couple verses out of context and assume they are speaking about the Word of God. They are not. The context is the "Godly man." That is who the author says that God will preserve. "O Lord, thou shalt preserve the Godly from this generation (the wicked) for ever.
The principle being taught that as long as a man is trusting in the Lord, God will deliver Him. The theme throughout the Psalm is centered on the "Godly man."
Yes, I will tell you that you can only find the true sense of some words by going to the Greek and Hebrew. Words like unicorn, church, baptism, and hundreds of others, as well as expressions such as "gird up the loins of your mind" (1Pet.1:13). Expressions like these can only be determined by the original language, just like a proper understanding of the very word "inspiration" (2Tim.3:16), which you still fail to grasp.
#1. God has not promised to sustain your life. He can take it away at any time.
#2. God has preserved his Word as He has promised to do, just not in the way that you demand Him to do. Why do you put yourself in the place of God demanding Him to do things your way?? Is God a puppet on a string to do whatever you want him to do.
#3. Your faith in the KJV as inspired Scriptures is not backed up by the Scriptures at all. It is based on the beliefs of a cult known as Ruckmanism. You have provided no Scriptures that back up your position. God promised that he would preserve his word--but never in 17th century English. You have yet to provide that proof.
#4. Your faith is backed up that you have and believe WHAT??
Unless you have the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures you don't have much, but a translation. Translations have mistakes in them. God's Word is preserved in the original language.
DHK
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
From the last cited link:
//Another doctrinal error is found in the NKJV, NIV, NASB, ESV and others in 2 Samuel 14:14.
//The context is Absalom had slain Amnon because he raped his sister Tamar. Absalom fled to Geshur and was there for three years, yet the soul of king David longed for his son Absalom. Joab decides to put words in the mouth of a wise woman from Tekoah and he sends her to speak to the king.
//In the course of their conversation the woman tells king David: "the king doth speak this thing as one which is faulty, in that the king doth not fetch home again his banished. For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; NEITHER DOTH GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
//The meaning is pretty straightforward. We all must die and God does not respect any person or show partiality to one more than another in this regard.
//Other Bible versions that read as the King James Bible are the Geneva Bible of 1599, the Jewish Publication Society of America's 1917 translation, Young's "literal" translation, Daniel Webster's 1833 translation, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.
//However when we get to the NewKJV, ESV, the NIV and the NASB instead of "neither doth God respect any person" they read "YET GOD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY LIFE". This is untrue and a contradiction.//
A. You mentioned no doctrine. What doctrine taught in which denomination
comes from the aledged varian reading on this verse?
B. IF YOU READ YOUR OWN REAL KJV, you would see that
even the KJV1611 translators were aware of the alternate readings of the
Old Testament sources here.
C. I note that many KJVs use by KJVOs omit the truth bearing margine notes
found in the KJV1611 edition.
II.Samuel XIIIJ.14
For we must needs die, and are as
water spilt on the ground, which can
no bee gathered vp againe : ||neither
doeth God respect any person, yet doeth
he deuise meanes, that his banished bee
not expelled from him.
Sidenote: ||Or because God hath not taken away
his life, he hath also deused meanes, &c.
//Another doctrinal error is found in the NKJV, NIV, NASB, ESV and others in 2 Samuel 14:14.
//The context is Absalom had slain Amnon because he raped his sister Tamar. Absalom fled to Geshur and was there for three years, yet the soul of king David longed for his son Absalom. Joab decides to put words in the mouth of a wise woman from Tekoah and he sends her to speak to the king.
//In the course of their conversation the woman tells king David: "the king doth speak this thing as one which is faulty, in that the king doth not fetch home again his banished. For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; NEITHER DOTH GOD RESPECT ANY PERSON: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
//The meaning is pretty straightforward. We all must die and God does not respect any person or show partiality to one more than another in this regard.
//Other Bible versions that read as the King James Bible are the Geneva Bible of 1599, the Jewish Publication Society of America's 1917 translation, Young's "literal" translation, Daniel Webster's 1833 translation, the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras, the KJV 21st Century version and the Third Millenium Bible.
//However when we get to the NewKJV, ESV, the NIV and the NASB instead of "neither doth God respect any person" they read "YET GOD DOES NOT TAKE AWAY LIFE". This is untrue and a contradiction.//
A. You mentioned no doctrine. What doctrine taught in which denomination
comes from the aledged varian reading on this verse?
B. IF YOU READ YOUR OWN REAL KJV, you would see that
even the KJV1611 translators were aware of the alternate readings of the
Old Testament sources here.
C. I note that many KJVs use by KJVOs omit the truth bearing margine notes
found in the KJV1611 edition.
II.Samuel XIIIJ.14
For we must needs die, and are as
water spilt on the ground, which can
no bee gathered vp againe : ||neither
doeth God respect any person, yet doeth
he deuise meanes, that his banished bee
not expelled from him.
Sidenote: ||Or because God hath not taken away
his life, he hath also deused meanes, &c.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I have. The question is, Have you acquainted yourself with Psalm 12? </font>[/QUOTE]Remember we have a serious problem here
with those who cannot figure out how
to find the noun resolving the pronoun
they find in the Bible. Sometimes the
resolved noun can even be 2 or 3
verses before the pronoun
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Michelle,
We have been up and down the "Psalm 12" thing. I know you didn't sleep through it, seeing as you made almost 1/3 of the posts. But you still haven't learned anything...
(Psa 12:1 KJV) <To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.> Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
(Psa 12:2 KJV) They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
(Psa 12:3 KJV) The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
(Psa 12:4 KJV) Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
(Psa 12:5 KJV) For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
(Psa 12:6 KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(Psa 12:7 KJV) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
(Psa 12:8 KJV) The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Your "proof" is an interjection in verse 6, which you and your KJVO cohorts try to link to verse 7 as your "proof".
But even if the verses could be ripped bleeding from their context and twisted into saying what you claim, it could still be applied to every translation of the bible ever written or conceived! Hello???!!! Anyone listening out there?
As to what language verse 6 is refering to, what language was it written in? What language did David speak, read, and write? What languages were the Jewish scriptures writte in at the time? (I'll give you a hint...it ain't English...and here's another...they were only written in one at the time, because the Jews spoke Hebrew at that stage of their history..oh, drat, I gave the answer...)
In Christ,
Trotter
We have been up and down the "Psalm 12" thing. I know you didn't sleep through it, seeing as you made almost 1/3 of the posts. But you still haven't learned anything...
(Psa 12:1 KJV) <To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.> Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
(Psa 12:2 KJV) They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
(Psa 12:3 KJV) The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
(Psa 12:4 KJV) Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
(Psa 12:5 KJV) For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
(Psa 12:6 KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
(Psa 12:7 KJV) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
(Psa 12:8 KJV) The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Your "proof" is an interjection in verse 6, which you and your KJVO cohorts try to link to verse 7 as your "proof".
But even if the verses could be ripped bleeding from their context and twisted into saying what you claim, it could still be applied to every translation of the bible ever written or conceived! Hello???!!! Anyone listening out there?
As to what language verse 6 is refering to, what language was it written in? What language did David speak, read, and write? What languages were the Jewish scriptures writte in at the time? (I'll give you a hint...it ain't English...and here's another...they were only written in one at the time, because the Jews spoke Hebrew at that stage of their history..oh, drat, I gave the answer...)
In Christ,
Trotter
Michelle has addressed translations and here you are accusing her of #1 not obeying God, #2 not studying, #3 a sinful heart attitude toward God.
"thou shall not bear a false witness against thy neighbor"
You have sinned against Michelle. She has said nothing to deserve such an opinionated attack from a professing brother in Christ. You should ask God and her for forgiveness.
I see nothing in her post which shows that she does not study God's word or does not obey Him. And I would like to know how you determined her heart was sinfully against God. She is among the few who trust the Lord and defend His power to keep His word pure, even as it changes hands between generations of sinful men.
Do men preserve the Word of God, or does God preserve the Word of God? Please answer!
God Bless!
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Yes. God uses men to
perserve His* written word.
Please note that "His" here has the
referrant of "God". So we could have said
our sentence:
God uses men to perserve God's written word.
Steaver,
My position has been made clear. God has preserved His Word in the original languages--Greek and Hebrew, and we have that Word today.
Michelle's position has been made clear. God has preserved His Word in the KJV, not only has He preserved it in the KJV but he has inspired it in the KJV (a heresy). This is repeated so often it leads me to believe that she doesn't want to study the Greek and Hebrew. She seemingly is afraid of it. There is such an attachment to the KJV that to study the Hebrew and Greek is either a fear or an anethema--I'm not sure which.
To assert that the KJV is both inspired and preserved seems to be an easy way out for many not to study the original languages, or not even to pick up a lexicon.
In answer to your question, I will reiterate: God preserves his Word, in the original languages, not in a translation. Translations have mistakes in them, simply because they are translated by errant fallible men.
DHK
My position has been made clear. God has preserved His Word in the original languages--Greek and Hebrew, and we have that Word today.
Michelle's position has been made clear. God has preserved His Word in the KJV, not only has He preserved it in the KJV but he has inspired it in the KJV (a heresy). This is repeated so often it leads me to believe that she doesn't want to study the Greek and Hebrew. She seemingly is afraid of it. There is such an attachment to the KJV that to study the Hebrew and Greek is either a fear or an anethema--I'm not sure which.
To assert that the KJV is both inspired and preserved seems to be an easy way out for many not to study the original languages, or not even to pick up a lexicon.
In answer to your question, I will reiterate: God preserves his Word, in the original languages, not in a translation. Translations have mistakes in them, simply because they are translated by errant fallible men.
DHK