-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
KJV-Onlyism Commentary
- Thread starter Jason Gastrich
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Is it Yes to God or Yes men?
</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, i didn't realise you
cannot remember what you asked.
Here is what you asked:
Steaver: "Do men preserve the Word of God,
or does God preserve the Word of God?
Please answer!"
Here is my answer:
"Yes."
Yes, men preserve the Written Word of
God; God preserves the Living Word of God.
(Some get the Living Word of God, Messiah Jesus,
and the Written Word of God, Holy Bible,
confused)
Steaver: "Who preserves the Word of God? Who gets ALL the credit?"
God.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
All of them collectively,
each of them individually. Your source answer
and KJV or MV answer are both the same.
I like to compare it to a hologram - the
whole hologram is present in each piece.
But people here who have problems resolving
pronouns usually have problems with
hologram metaphors.
Well, I don't get them confused, they are one in the same. "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword". So Hebrews 4:12 is reffering to only Jesus Christ?
I thought the scripture taught that God would preserve His Word. You believe that it teaches men will preserve His Word. Or is that just an opinion? Can you show me scripture which states that it is men who will preserve God's Word?
God Bless!
That is a legitimate question. There is a lot of information on it in the versions forum. There are over 3,000 Greek manuscripts. Among them there are copyist errors. But again there is nothing that would change any meaning.Originally posted by steaver:
I was told that no two Greek or Hebrew manuscripts perfectly agree with each other. In what manuscripts are the preserved words of God found in the original languages?
God Bless!
I personally believe that God has preserved His Word in the received text (textus receptus) of the Greek New Testament, and in the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Old Testament.
There are others that believe otherwise, and thus a textual criticism debate carries on. I don't believe that this is an issue that should cause the brethren to be divided on.
DHK
--------------------------------------------------
Yes I have studied Psalm 12, but apparently you have not. You take a couple verses out of context and assume they are speaking about the Word of God. They are not. The context is the "Godly man." That is who the author says that God will preserve. "O Lord, thou shalt preserve the Godly from this generation (the wicked) for ever.
The principle being taught that as long as a man is trusting in the Lord, God will deliver Him. The theme throughout the Psalm is centered on the "Godly man."
--------------------------------------------------
Your interpretation is incorrect in light of the context of this passage, the fact that God has declared he would preserve his words, and in light of many other scripture references concerning the words of the Lord, including this very important verse:
John 5
37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
It is throught the scriptures, or the word of truth that we are preserved and kept preserved and kept in safety from the wicked.
Ephesians 6
10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19. And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20. For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Yes I have studied Psalm 12, but apparently you have not. You take a couple verses out of context and assume they are speaking about the Word of God. They are not. The context is the "Godly man." That is who the author says that God will preserve. "O Lord, thou shalt preserve the Godly from this generation (the wicked) for ever.
The principle being taught that as long as a man is trusting in the Lord, God will deliver Him. The theme throughout the Psalm is centered on the "Godly man."
--------------------------------------------------
Your interpretation is incorrect in light of the context of this passage, the fact that God has declared he would preserve his words, and in light of many other scripture references concerning the words of the Lord, including this very important verse:
John 5
37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
It is throught the scriptures, or the word of truth that we are preserved and kept preserved and kept in safety from the wicked.
Ephesians 6
10. Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15. And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16. Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19. And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20. For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Wait a minute! God preserved His words. </font>[/QUOTE]So nitpicky!
Matthew 13
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. (Mark 4 confirms the repeated use of the singular "word" in this parable)
Mark 2
2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
Luke 1
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
There's plenty more examples but this should suffice.
http://studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3056
BTW, one should put Romans 16:26 in context:
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. </font>[/QUOTE]Please read Psalm 12:6-7 (KJV)
The wordS of the LORD are pure wordS : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
You see, there is no way for the common Christian to confirm such a statement. One must believe it by faith that God has preserved His Word. The same is true for most KJVO Christians. By faith we must believe that God has preserved His Word and since the KJB was basically the bible used for English folk almost exclusively for decades upon decades, it is this bible which we believe must be the preserved word of God. Since the MVs have challenged the KJB, it seems highly suspect for the common Christian to believe they are from the Lord. This has no "final authorative" support,it is purely a discernment issue.
God Bless!
I have. The question is, Have you acquainted yourself with Psalm 12?
Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
Psalms 12:7-8 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Yes I have studied Psalm 12, but apparently you have not. You take a couple verses out of context and assume they are speaking about the Word of God. They are not. The context is the "Godly man." That is who the author says that God will preserve. "O Lord, thou shalt preserve the Godly from this generation (the wicked) for ever.
The principle being taught that as long as a man is trusting in the Lord, God will deliver Him. The theme throughout the Psalm is centered on the "Godly man."
Yes, I will tell you that you can only find the true sense of some words by going to the Greek and Hebrew. Words like unicorn, church, baptism, and hundreds of others, as well as expressions such as "gird up the loins of your mind" (1Pet.1:13). Expressions like these can only be determined by the original language, just like a proper understanding of the very word "inspiration" (2Tim.3:16), which you still fail to grasp.
#1. God has not promised to sustain your life. He can take it away at any time.
#2. God has preserved his Word as He has promised to do, just not in the way that you demand Him to do. Why do you put yourself in the place of God demanding Him to do things your way?? Is God a puppet on a string to do whatever you want him to do.
#3. Your faith in the KJV as inspired Scriptures is not backed up by the Scriptures at all. It is based on the beliefs of a cult known as Ruckmanism. You have provided no Scriptures that back up your position. God promised that he would preserve his word--but never in 17th century English. You have yet to provide that proof.
#4. Your faith is backed up that you have and believe WHAT??
Unless you have the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures you don't have much, but a translation. Translations have mistakes in them. God's Word is preserved in the original language.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]You contradict yourself with your 2 answers:
and
Look at Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I.e. it is
entirely your opinion and nothing more.
BTW, i don't see MVs as challenging
the KJB but supplimenting them. God
has preserved His written word in the
MVs (individually and collectively).
--------------------------------------------------
You contradict yourself with your 2 answers:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
Psalms 12:7-8 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God has preserved his Word as He has promised to do
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
--------------------------------------------------
Amen!! Askjo. Thank you for sharing and showing this contradiction. I have noticed this of many for a while, but you have done a wonderful job of exposing this. Thank you.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
You contradict yourself with your 2 answers:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalms 12:1 Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
Psalms 12:7-8 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God has preserved his Word as He has promised to do
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look at Psalm 12:6-7
The words of the LORD are pure words : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
--------------------------------------------------
Amen!! Askjo. Thank you for sharing and showing this contradiction. I have noticed this of many for a while, but you have done a wonderful job of exposing this. Thank you.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Michelle,
What are you trying to prove with the references that you quote. You say that I am wrong with my interpretation of Psalm 12. I appreciate your opinion. IMO, you are wrong. Either way, as it has been pointed out to you (apparently countless of times), even if the preservation referred to the Word, it would refer to the Word in the Hebrew language, not in the 17th century English language. Your argument is illogical.
You can quote all the Scripture you want, but it is Christ that has the power to take life and to give life.
Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
DHK
What are you trying to prove with the references that you quote. You say that I am wrong with my interpretation of Psalm 12. I appreciate your opinion. IMO, you are wrong. Either way, as it has been pointed out to you (apparently countless of times), even if the preservation referred to the Word, it would refer to the Word in the Hebrew language, not in the 17th century English language. Your argument is illogical.
You can quote all the Scripture you want, but it is Christ that has the power to take life and to give life.
Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
DHK
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Askjo to DHK*: "You contradict yourself with your 2 answers"
* I say "DHK" so Askjo's "you" can be resolved.
There are people about with difficulty figuring out
which noun thier pronoun refers to (or is that "to which
noun their pronoun refers?).
DHK's two answers do not contradict each other.
He says that Psalms 12:7 does NOT prove that God
will preserve His written word. But God will preserve
His written word. (It is proved in places in the
Bible other than in Psalms 12:&).
The problem here was not DHK contradicting himself but
with Askjo's confusion. God is not the author of confusion.
* I say "DHK" so Askjo's "you" can be resolved.
There are people about with difficulty figuring out
which noun thier pronoun refers to (or is that "to which
noun their pronoun refers?).
DHK's two answers do not contradict each other.
He says that Psalms 12:7 does NOT prove that God
will preserve His written word. But God will preserve
His written word. (It is proved in places in the
Bible other than in Psalms 12:&).
The problem here was not DHK contradicting himself but
with Askjo's confusion. God is not the author of confusion.
--------------------------------------------------
I see nothing in her post which shows that she does not study God's word or does not obey Him. And I would like to know how you determined her heart was sinfully against God. She is among the few who trust the Lord and defend His power to keep His word pure, even as it changes hands between generations of sinful men.
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much Brother Steaver for your kind words and defense of me and the truth. I also thank our Lord Jesus Christ for you and your kind words, as the Lord always knows when we need it and always gives it and I surely have been blessed by your post.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
I see nothing in her post which shows that she does not study God's word or does not obey Him. And I would like to know how you determined her heart was sinfully against God. She is among the few who trust the Lord and defend His power to keep His word pure, even as it changes hands between generations of sinful men.
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much Brother Steaver for your kind words and defense of me and the truth. I also thank our Lord Jesus Christ for you and your kind words, as the Lord always knows when we need it and always gives it and I surely have been blessed by your post.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------
Either way, as it has been pointed out to you (apparently countless of times), even if the preservation referred to the Word, it would refer to the Word in the Hebrew language, not in the 17th century English language. Your argument is illogical.
--------------------------------------------------
Please show me where the scriptures indicate this? Am I a faithful believer in Christ Jesus my Lord and Saviour? Are you? Are others? Then this promise applies to us. Not just and only Hebrew and Greek speaking faithful people.
--------------------------------------------------
You can quote all the Scripture you want, but it is Christ that has the power to take life and to give life.
Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
--------------------------------------------------
I never said that God did not have this power. I said God has the power to sustain my life. I never said God did not have the power to take it. God has preserved my life, for I have eternal life in Jesus Christ my Lord.
John 3
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
and ....
John 5
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Either way, as it has been pointed out to you (apparently countless of times), even if the preservation referred to the Word, it would refer to the Word in the Hebrew language, not in the 17th century English language. Your argument is illogical.
--------------------------------------------------
Please show me where the scriptures indicate this? Am I a faithful believer in Christ Jesus my Lord and Saviour? Are you? Are others? Then this promise applies to us. Not just and only Hebrew and Greek speaking faithful people.
--------------------------------------------------
You can quote all the Scripture you want, but it is Christ that has the power to take life and to give life.
Proverbs 27:1 Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.
--------------------------------------------------
I never said that God did not have this power. I said God has the power to sustain my life. I never said God did not have the power to take it. God has preserved my life, for I have eternal life in Jesus Christ my Lord.
John 3
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
and ....
John 5
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
God preserves His word through the vehicle of men.
Luke 1
1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
John 17
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I have already showed you this in Scripture. I have faithfully expounded to you 2Peter 1:21 and 2Timothy 3:16 many times already. These Scriptures plainly teach that God inspired (breathed into) the words of the prophets and the apostles, and only the words of the prophets and the apostles, and no one else. That means that inspiration is limited to the original Greek and Hebrew autographs of the Apostles and prophets. God never promised to inspire the words of any other person, such as a copyist or a translator. You have to provide that evidence to me.
DHK
--------------------------------------------------
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess many of us who do not know Hebrew and Greek are in big trouble when this day comes, since God only promised to preserve his pure words in Hebrew and Greek. Generations of English speaking people, even until this very day have only known, believed, lived, and taught many of those things many claim today are in error in our scriptures and lack knowledge or ability to learn the pure words of God. Since God cannot provide His words error free in our language, many of us are in trouble and danger of judgement.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess many of us who do not know Hebrew and Greek are in big trouble when this day comes, since God only promised to preserve his pure words in Hebrew and Greek. Generations of English speaking people, even until this very day have only known, believed, lived, and taught many of those things many claim today are in error in our scriptures and lack knowledge or ability to learn the pure words of God. Since God cannot provide His words error free in our language, many of us are in trouble and danger of judgement.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle