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So English Bible translations other than the KJV are indeed Scripture?

 

The emphasis should be on "theory".

 

On the contrary, your accusation of his inconsistency demonstrates your subjectivity. Fact is, it is not demonstrable that Greg is inconsistent. You translated what is Greg's humility into proof of something that is not there. This is what transpired:

1.) Greg stated GT was wrong to call M a "troll". (personally, I've never thought of M as a troll either, just lacking in any discernable point just as Greg said)
2.) GT made the suggestion that Greg may be unobjective by backing up M because Greg is a KJVO. Wisely, GT only suggests it as a possibility rather than a statement of fact (even though he then supplied this inane statement)

3.) Greg (rather than protest the suggestion as you or I likely would have) took the idea to heart and admitted the possibility that he might be less than objective.
4.) You take the admission of that possibility from a man with twice the humility and power of introspection of you and I combined and turn it into a fait-accompli proof of guilt and then subsequently draw the illogical conclusion that Greg's claims are therefore invalid. <---a big fat non-sequitor

But....I see you KJVO detractors will stick together :1_grouphug: regardless so......what's the point.

 

Gravity is a "Theory".
Cell Theory is a "Theory".
Einstein's special Theory of Relativity is a "Theory".
Electrical Theory is also "Theory".

 

I said that Greg's position is inconsistent because....get ready...he is inconsistent!

Yes!

Well,you are confusing me with GreekTim.

 

My Opinion....

I will accept that Rippon perceives me to be inconsistent in my beliefs about the KJV simply because IN HIS MIND I am! He has been taught differently from me on the subject. I have no doubt that he sincerely believes he is right about what he believes. We are not both right...one of us is WRONG on the subject. I think I know which of us is right and which is wrong....and of course, he would SAY THE SAME.
What I have learned on the subject of the KJV and manuscript evidence over the course of 30+ years has been both satisfying and comforting to me and left me with great confidence in the Word of God and the men and women down through the centuries that have shed blood, suffered and died for the Bible I hold in my hand and the Saviour that I have in my heart. If that belief makes me seem "inconsistent" in any man's eyes....I can live with that.
Heir....thank you for your kind comments. I am deeply humbled by them.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

No,it is not merely in my mind. You were honest enough to admit your inconsistency earlier.

I have not been "taught" on the subject. I have studied and learned;but not taught as such.

Who, exactly, has died for the cause of the KJV?

 

A matter of subjective opinion....

Rippon...we are merely trading opinions that we each regard as fact back and forth. If I EVER stated that I was "inconsistent" then let me correct that right now. I do not believe myself to be so. I am an honest man or at least I always TRY to be. I merely stated that I recognise that YOU believe me to be inconsistent....and I can live with that. Doesn't look like you have or are giving me any choice in that matter...as I see it.

Further...you said....

Well...you didn't get what you have "studied and learned" out of a KJV....or any other translation or version either. If you have read or listened to the teachings and opinions of other men in regards to the Bible Version Issue (and you KNOW you have) (JUST AS I HAVE TO THE CONTRARY VIEW) and accepted as true and factual what they have said about the matter in reaching the conclusions that you have on the subject...Then YOU....just like ME...have been TAUGHT. It is part of the learning process on ANY subject.
You know that I have said numerous times in these forums that I don't believe that the KJV "camp" (of which I am unashamedly a part of) has any (Chapter and Verse type scriptural "support") to support their position....and NEITHER do the CT/MV crowd. All of our conclusions (on both sides of the issue) are based on extra-biblical evidence surrounding the transmission and preservation of the Original Language texts. The verses IN "the Bible" that either of us may be prone to quoting are always quoted in reference to the "version" each of us is attempting to support. I still believe that for English-speaking people in this dispensation of the Church age the KJV is the Bible that God wants His people to use. I believe the manuscript evidence supports that conclusion. Can I prove that to you??....obviously not....and I can live with that as well.

Granted...I DID say "the Bible I hold in my hand" and I will stand by that statement. I do believe that Book (the KJV) IS the Word of God....and I stand by that statement as well. There have been many who have died for the "Word of God" over the many years since God gave us His Word in printed form (and before that too). This controversy about the translations was never a big deal or discussed much until the last century when all this avalanche of new versions began to flood the church. Church history is replete with the stories of many who died rather than give up their loyalty to God and His Word. Do I know their names?....NO....but I'm sure there are some.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Name five people who bled and died for the King James Bible.

What exactly is your position so that we will not be talking past each other?

Is it that the translators of the King James were guided divinely in translation something like the original authors were guided?

Is it that every word in the King James is perfect and consistent with every word it translates from the original authors?

Is the English King James so good that there is never any use in going to the original Greek?

 

Simply saying this would have been equally as sufficient and more accurate:
"I'm right because.....I'm right"
That would be equally as informative as what you just said here.

I exposed your lack of logic, and you double-down with another stupid circularity..........I don't care so much if the KJVO position is true or not, as long as I can expose the sheer stupidity of some of it's detractors :smilewinkgrin:

 

You are "humbled" by nearly everything.........That's precisely what frankly......P*sses me off when people are rude towards you.
ME!!!...... I deserve every bit of slamming I get. I get feisty, and I fight back, and I'm willing to take a blow.....God knows.....I also DEAL plenty of them.

You DON'T though......you are a kind and humble man. As far as I can tell, you are EVERYTHING that is GOOD about a KJVO position, and you exemplify NONE of it's weaknesses.

I have no patience for people who attack you. I admire your humility and your simple loving faith in God's word as you understand it.

I don't care if people deny the KJVO argument as posed on this board...........I DO get frankly rather protective when those people are nasty towards one who exemplifies IMO Christian humility and love......

YUP!!!! you aren't the fightin' type.......but I am........and I will go to blows with anyone who insults you. Rippon and other KJV-haters may say what they will....but I WILL fight back when they get nasty with you. Sorry Greg, you are a GOOD man IMO....and I ain't gonna stand by while they lay their blows.

I'm an arrogant a*s....I deserve some abuse......You don't though, and I won't hear it from Rippon or anyone else.

 

See my post to Rippon

Luke...see my post #29 on page 3 to Rippon as to those who have bled and died for the Word of God for the only answer I can give to that question. As to the rest of your questions my answers are (in order of your questions)....you already know my position on the KJV sooo....,yes I do believe the KJV translators were "led" by God in their work (whether they realized it or not), Yes...I do believe that in guarding and guiding the work of the translators God made sure that the KJV was a perfect translation of the originals in both wording and meaning in it's end result (I am not talking about spelling issues) and finally.....yes it is that good.....but I have no problem with people referring to the Greek or Hebrew.

I'm not, however, going to get into another one of those point for point debates on this matter because the facts of this issue on both sides of the argument have been hashed and re-hashed so many times in this forum by many who are far more knowledgeable than I that there really isn't any point in it. This forum contains ample "archives" where you can find the answers you seek. I am always willing to state my beliefs about this and other matters....but argument just for the sake of itself is not what I care to engage in. IF the sum total of all our "vast" knowledge as Christians doesn't lead us to more faithfully discharge the ministry of loving and serving others for Christ's sake and seeking to do what we can to win others to Him then it really isn't worth very much. If what we "know" was or is drawing us into a closer walk and relationship with Christ then those things I just mentioned would be our bigger priority. I,for one, am very "needy" in this respect.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Then I don't know why you are here. This is a debate site. We are supposed to debate point for point. This is not a "just state your opinion and don't back it up site."

 

I'm here because....well....

I'm here because I want to be. There is no rule that says I HAVE to debate anything nor is there one that says I must leave if I don't engage in debate. If you enjoy debate...then God Bless you...debate to your hearts content. I'll do the same if I think #1...it is useful...and #2....if I have a reasonable opportunity of proving that which I am debating about. For the record...I don't think I have the skill or the knowledge to be able to convince anybody about the topic under discussion in this thread. Nor do they have the skill or knowledge to change my mind either.

Beyond all that....I am here on the Baptist Board because it is a community of faith which I generally enjoy being a part of and for the most part I enjoy the fellowship and the "back and forth" of the conversation with most everybody here.....whether I 100% agree with everybody or not. I do try to avoid the ones that get belligerent or that seem to take pleasure in argument just for the sake of argument.

As for what I believe...well...I've tried to be as transparent as possible on this forum so that people know me for what I really am and also have some idea of my hearts intent of what and how I WANT to be. As for debate or apologetics....I like being able to respectfully comment on things that matter to me but I don't consider myself to be a strong debater nor a particularly skilled apologist. I usually state clearly when I am stating my opinion or quoting established fact that I am dogmatic about. I shall continue to do so whilst being thankful to God and the owners, administrators and moderators of this Board for the privilege to do so. By the way....even I have to admit that this thread has wandered far from it's original topic and I have been partially guilty of helping that to happen. I think we may all owe Makahiya117 an apology for that. I think he originally intended for his OP to be a source of edification for the readers of the Board. It sure took a wild turn from that.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Why don't you explain it since that seems to be what your view suggests?

 

How is that belief scriptural when the Scriptures do not suggest that God would show partiality or respect of persons to one exclusive group of Church of England scholars in 1611?

You have not demonstrated that the scriptures actually teach your KJV-only view.

 

I know that...

I know that. But to me...the KJV IS "the scriptures" so I don't feel any compelling need to do so since I have absolute confidence and faith in the Book I hold in my hand. I have ZERO doubts that it is the Word of God as God wants me to have it in English. Those who prefer the MV's (in English)could possibly say the same but they don't have any "chapter and verse" to support their position either....and I daresay that they probably don't have the same level of absolute confidence in their "versions" that I ascribe to mine. I open my Bible with a great deal of confidence and if, while I am reading or studying it, I encounter either a word or phrase I don't understand or am not familar with, I PRAYERFULLY search it out in my dictionary or my concordance while taking into account the context in which it appears. These methods have NEVER failed me in all these years and the Holy Spirit has been faithful to impart to me the understanding that I have sought and needed. Part of good discipleship also involves teaching others HOW to study God's Word as well....and I feel that many times we FAIL in that task these days....particularly with our young people. I am no expert but I know enough to be able to help others at least in the basics. Suggesting an almost endless array of Modern translations which many times don't even agree with one another or contain footnotes which call into question the actual authority of many portions of scripture "according to modern scholarship" does nothing but foster and further additional confusion in the Body of Christ. The days of "responsive reading" of the scriptures are largely a thing of the past because there is little uniformity within most assemblies now as to who is carrying what Bible. That is sad....and robs many churches of something that they once could have done with a comforting unity.

I'm gonna stay right where I am with peace and absolute confidence. I know I can't convince or force anyone into the same position. The debate is over for me....I'm just in the "declaration" phase these days. Hopefully though...in doing that...it is my hope that I may say something that will be a source of hope, help, and blessing to someone. Have a nice week Rick.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

Gregory Perry Sr:

Same as we believe about other translators such as Tyndale and Coverdale before the KJV, and others who came later. We do NOT believe in the exclusivity of the AV translators.

In the face of PROVEN GOOFS in the KJV such as "Easter" in Acts 12:4 and "the love of money is THE root of ALL evil" in 1 Tim. 6:10.

I should hope not, becaise those Greek and Hebrew mss. are the forms GOD chose for which to pass His preserved word down to us. They're the closest things to the originals He has given us. A translation goofs whenever it strays from the correct interp of any word/phrase in those mss.