KJV vs KJV

Logos1560 · May 24, 2006

Let's please try to stick to the facts from KJV editions instead of getting into subjective feelings about the KJV.

Consider a present day KJV that is published by Cambridge University Press in Great Britain [ISBN 0-521-50882-7]. It is identified as a "standard text edition." It differs from the standard text in the Oxford edition in the Scofield Bible in several places. This Cambridge edition has “spirit of God“ (Gen. 1:2) for “Spirit of God,” "assuaged" (Gen. 8:1) for "asswaged," "plucked" (Gen. 8:11) for "pluckt," “Sabtecha“ (Gen. 10:7) for “Sabtechah,” "mortar" (Gen. 11:3) for "morter," “theirs“ (Gen. 15:13, 34:23, 43:34) for “their‘s,” “fetched“ (Gen. 18:7) for “fetcht,” “entreat“ for “intreat“ (Gen. 23:8), “Abida“ (Gen. 25:4) for “Abidah,” “ours“ (Gen. 26:20, 31:16, 34:23) for “our‘s,” “chestnut“ (Gen. 30:37) for “chesnut,” "aught" (Gen. 39:6) for "ought," “today“ (Gen. 40:7) for “to day,” “spirit of God“ (Gen. 41:38) for “Spirit of God,” “Zerah“ (Gen. 46:12) for “Zarah,” “basins“ (Exod. 24:6) for “basons,” "veil" (Exod. 26:31) for "vail," "plaster" (Lev. 14:42) for "plaister," "plastered" (Lev. 14:43) for "plaistered," "crookbacked" (Lev. 21:20) for "crookbackt," “jubilee“ (Lev. 25:9) for “jubile,” “mixed“ (Num. 11:4) for “mixt,” “ours“ (Num. 32:32) for “our‘s,” “aught“ (Deut. 4:2) for “ought,” “yours“ (Deut. 11:24) for “your‘s,” “awl“ (Deut. 15:17) for “aul,” “hers“ (Deut. 21:15) for “her‘s,” "rearward" (Josh. 6:9) for "rereward," “Jahazah“ (Josh. 13:18) for “Jahaza,” "or Sheba" (Josh. 19:2) for "and Sheba," “Hapharaim“ (Josh. 19:19) for “Haphraim,” “spirit“ (Jud. 3:10) for “Spirit,” “wondrously“ (Jud. 13:19) for “wonderously,” "steadfastly" (Ruth 1:18) for "stedfastly," “hasted“ (1 Sam. 17:48) for “hastened,” “spirit“ (1 Sam. 19:20, 2 Sam. 23:2) for “Spirit,” “inquired“ (1 Sam. 22:13) for “enquired,” “Malchi-shua“ (1 Sam. 31:2) for “Melchi-shua,” “aught“ (2 Sam. 3:35) for “ought,” “Shammua“ (2 Sam. 5:14) for “Shammuah,” “Shimea“ (2 Sam. 21:21) for “Shimeah,” “Naharai“ (2 Sam. 23:37) for “Nahari,” "ceiling" (1 Kings 6:15) for "cieling," “the LORD“ (1 Kings 8:56) for “the Lord,” “spirit“ (1 Kings 18:12) for “Spirit,“ “inquire“ (1 Kings 22:8) for “enquire,” “hers“ (2 Kings 8:6) for “her‘s,” "the LORD" (2 Kings 19:23) for "the Lord," “Geshan“ (1 Chron. 2:47) for “Gesham,” “Achsah“ (1 Chron. 2:79) for “Achsa,” “Salchah“ (1 Chron. 5:11) for “Salcah,” “Shimron“ (1 Chron. 7:2) for “Shimrom,” “Shemida“ (1 Chron. 7:19) for “Shemidah,” “Michah“ (1 Chron. 23:20) for “Micah,” “Jeshua“ (1 Chron. 24:11) for “Jeshuah,” "floats" (2 Chron. 2:16) for "flotes," "ceiled" (2 Chron. 3:5) for "cieled," “spirit“ (2 Chron. 15:1) for “Spirit,” “Ezion-geber“ (2 Chron. 20:36) for “Ezion-gaber,” "sin" (2 Chron. 33:19) for "sins," “Asnappar“ (Ezra 4:10) for “Asnapper,” "O LORD" (Neh. 1:11) for "O Lord," “LORD“ (Neh. 3:5) for “Lord,” "entreated" (Job 19:17) for "intreated," "vapour" (Ps. 148:8) for "vapours," “two-edged“ (Ps. 149:6) for “twoedged,” "inquiry" (Prov. 20:25) for "enquiry," “further“ (Eccl. 8:17) for “farther,” “cloak“ (Isa. 59:17) for “cloke,” "holy spirit" (Isa. 63:10) for "holy Spirit," "whom ye" (Jer. 34:16) for "whom he," "portray" (Ezek. 4:1) for "pourtray," “spirit“ (Ezek. 11:5) for “Spirit,” “Kerioth“ (Amos 2:2) for “Kirioth,” "flieth" (Nah. 3:16) for "fleeth," “inquired“ (Matt. 2:7) for “enquired,” "Spirit" (Matt. 4:1) for "spirit," "theirs" (Matt. 5:3) for "their's," “aught“ (Matt. 5:23) for “ought,” "cloak" (Matt. 5:40) for "cloke," "lunatic" (Matt. 17:15) for "lunatick," "sponge" (Matt. 27:48) for "spunge," “Spirit“ (Mark 1:12) for “spirit,” “further“ (Mark 1:19) for “farther,” "yours" (Luke 6:20) for "your's," “havoc“ (Acts 8:3) for “havock,” “inquiry“ (Acts 10:17) for “enquiry,” “grafted“ (Rom. 11:23) for “graffed,” “graft” (Rom. 11:23) for “graff,“ “entreaty” (2 Cor. 8:4) for “intreaty,“ “entreat” (Phil. 4:3) for “intreat,“ and "chrysolite" (Rev. 21:20) for "chrysolyte."

The above are some actual differences between two of the seven or more varying present-day KJV editions. Some other editions have more differences than those above. There are over 1800 differences that affect the sound between the 1611 edition of the KJV and the present Oxford KJV edition.

Back to my original point, what is the standard or authority for determining which KJV edition has the correct rendering? What is the greater authority for saying whether a certain rendering in a certain KJV edition is an error (whether made by a printer or editor) or is not an error?

John of Japan · May 24, 2006

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Tony, show me in the MV's where God states He has more than one legitimate translation of His infallible Word. If you can't you have said God has spoken when he did not speak. Jeremiah called those who do that--false prophets.
Click to expand...

Here is a case in the KJV where the original Aramaic is given, but the inspired writers of Scripture give two different translations. This validates to me that it is possible to correctly translate the original in more than one way. These are parallel passages on the same event from two different Synoptic writers.

Mark 5:41--And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

Luke 8:54-- And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.

Logos1560 · May 24, 2006

I have an edition of the KJV printed in London in 1841. Here are a few sample variations or differences in the books of 1 & 2 Samuel between this 1841 KJV edition as compared to the present Oxford KJV.

This 1841 edition has "plough" in place of "ear" (1 Sam. 8:12), “Barak“ in place of “Bedan“ (1 Sam. 12:11), "three thousand chariots" in place of "thirty thousand chariots" (1 Sam. 13:5), “scribbled“ in place of “scrabbled“ (1 Sam. 21:13), “judges of Israel“ in place of “tribes of Israel“ (2 Sam. 7:7), “seven thousand horsemen“ in place of “seven hundred horsemen“ (2 Sam. 8:4), “Jerubbaal“ in place of “Jerubbesheth“ (2 Sam. 11:21), “after four years“ in place of “after forty years“ (2 Sam. 15:7), and “three hundred“ in place of “eight hundred“ (2 Sam. 23:8).

Are all editions of the KJV supposed to be considered the 100% inerrant word of God without errors of any kind including errors made by printers?

If some editions of the KJV are excluded, what is the standard outside all editions of the KJV that is to be used to evaluate and determine which edition of the KJV is correct?

Logos1560 · May 24, 2006

I have an edition of the KJV printed at Oxford
in 1795. From just the book of Psalms, here are a few differences between this 1795 Oxford edition and the present Oxford edition.

The 1795 Oxford edition has “the LORD” for “the Lord” (Ps. 2:4), “unto me” for “under me” (Ps. 18:47), “LORD“ for “Lord“ (Ps. 35:17), “The LORD“ for “The Lord“ (Ps. 37:13), “LORD“ for “Lord“ (Ps. 38:9), “O LORD” for “O Lord” (Ps. 44:23), “feared” for “fear” (Ps. 60:4), “part” for “parts” (Ps. 78:66), “the wood“ for “a wood“ (Ps. 83:14), “LORD“ for “Lord“ (Ps. 86:5), “gates of iron” for “bars of iron” (Ps. 107:16), “The LORD“ for “The Lord“ (Ps. 110:5), “LORD“ for “Lord“ (Ps. 114:7), “shout for joy“ for “shout aloud for joy“ (Ps. 132:16), “our LORD” for “our Lord” (Ps. 135:5), “adder‘s poison“ for “adders‘ poison“ (Ps. 140:3), “O God the LORD“ for “O GOD the Lord“ (Ps. 140:7), and “heaven of heavens“ for “heavens of heavens“ (Ps. 148:4).

Do these facts from just a few KJV editions indicate that it is a valid question to ask what is the correct standard and authority for evaluating KJV editions and determining which KJV edition has the correct rendering and which one has an error whether made by the printer or editor?

Ed Edwards · May 24, 2006

Some on-line variants I've found:

On-line KJV variant #1:

http://www.bartleby.com/
The King James Version 2000
Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
he was afterward ahungered.

[follow this trail:
Reference > The Bible > The King James Version > Matthew > 4 ]

http://www.christnotes.org/
The King James Version
Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
he was afterward an hungred.

http://www.servantofjesuschrist.com/
quoted St. Matthew 4:2:
And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
he was afterward a hungered.
(my paper KJV1873 reads like this)

http://www.Crosswalk.com/
The King James Version (Authorized)
Matthew 4:2
And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
he was afterward an hungred.
(My Grandmother's Bible is like this.
From the title page: New York: American Bible
Society, 1851.)

The "hee was afterward an hungred" is found in
my paper 1611 Edition KJV and on-line at e-Sword.com

On-line KJV variant #2:

http://www.bartleby.com/
The King James Version x
1 Cor 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
asking no question for conscience' sake:

http://www.christnotes.org/
The King James Version
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
asking no question for conscience sake:

http://www.servantofjesuschrist.com/
10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles,
that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

http://www.Crosswalk.com/
The King James Version (Authorized)
10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
asking no question for conscience sake:

e-Sword.com KJV1769 with Strongs:
1Co 10:25 Whatsoever3956 is sold4453 in1722 the meat market,3111 that eat,2068 asking no question350, 3367 for conscience sake:1223, 4893

online variant #3

Which KJV is correct?
How can you tell?
Who desides?
What doctrine is hinging on the
punctuation of this sentence?

Colossians 2:23 (KJV1611 Edition):

Which things haue in deed a shew of wisedome in will-worship
and humilitie, and ||neglecting of the body,
not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Sidenote: || Or, punsihing , or not sparing

Colossians 2:23 (KJV Crosswalk.com):

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship,
and humility, and neglecting of the body,
not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (KJV E-Sword.com):

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will-worship,
and humility, and neglecting of the body;
not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Colossians 2:23 (KJV1873 Edition):

Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship,
and humility, and neglecting of the body:
not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

robycop3 · May 24, 2006

I believe, since GOD created all languages, and is the Supreme Being, that He causes/allows all changes in every language. And I also believe that, since He controls all language anyway, that He controls His very own words closely, and causes them to appear in every language EXACTLY AS HE CHOOSES, and WE have no authority to pick-n-choose what versions are valid & which are not, except those such as "Good As New" that obviously don't follow any known manuscript or previous translations.

No two mss are exactly alike, nor any two translations. None of this is lost on GOD. HE knows what He's doing, whether WE know or not. Long ago, I learned to accept what He's done & what He's doing, knowing that all will turn out for the best some day. And this applies to Bible versions also. I believe every change you've documented here between KJV editions has come about by God's will. I don't know why He did it, but again HE has His reasone whether we know them or not.

I don't believe anyone has any authority to choose one KJV edition & call the others bogus, any more than they can do it with the various versions. Strictly speaking, each KJV edition is a version within itself.

No, sports fans, this is NOT a Mormon 'warm, fuzzy feeling'-it's based upon the REALITY of the KJV editions we have before us.

TC · May 24, 2006

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We may be KJVO, but God is on our side!
Click to expand...

I must have missed that verse - which one was that again?

TC · May 24, 2006

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We may be KJVO, but God is on our side!
Click to expand...

So, after making a big stink on another thread about you not being KJVO, you are now KJVO? Having a little trouble making up your mind?

Scott J · May 24, 2006

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We may be KJVO, but God is on our side!
Click to expand...

Prove it. God is on the side of truth. Truth is determined either by what God declares or else through application of biblical principles to experiences and evidence.

For instance, KJVO's often claim the KJV as the cause of past great revivals. If that is true MV's are validated since more people were saved worldwide in the 1990's than any other period. More martyrs died in the 20th century than any other.

English speaking people are getting saved and growing in the Lord without ever using the KJV.

NaasPreacher (C4K) · May 24, 2006

Fourteen of the approximately 25 posts on this thread are off topic. This is far to much to try and repair.

Stick to the topic, which has nothing to do with KJVO, or it will be closed without notice.

Ransom · May 24, 2006

off topic post deleted

[ May 24, 2006, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

saturneptune · May 24, 2006

off topic post deleted

[ May 24, 2006, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]

Logos1560 · May 25, 2006

The example of the 1852-1858 standard American Bible Society edition:

Darlow and Moule observed that in the 1851-52 edition "the 's' has been dropped in the case of Hebrew plurals; thus cherubim for cherubims (HISTORICAL CATALOGUE OF THE PRINTED EDITIONS OF HOLY SCRIPTURES, p. 362). This ABS Standard edition as found in an 1853 edition had “cherubim” (Gen. 3:24), “Rephaim” (Gen. 14:5), “Emim” (Gen. 14:5), “Anakim” (Deut. 1:28), “Horim“ (Deut. 2:12), “Avim“ (Deut. 2:23), “Caphtorim“ (Deut. 2:23), “Nethinim” (1 Chron. 9:2), “Mehunim“ (2 Chron. 26:7), “seraphim” (Isa. 6:2), “cherubim’s” (Ezek. 10:5), "Gammadim" (Ezek. 27:11), and “Chemarim“ (Zeph. 1:4). There were also some variations or changes in the 1851-52 edition that are not found in the present ABS edition. For example, the 1851-52 edition had "in the judgment" instead "in judgment" at Matthew 12:41. The ABS’s Committee on Versions maintained that “this is required by the Greek; and the same Greek phrase, in verse 42, is so rendered by the translators” (STATEMENTS, p. 6). It had “Aijalon“ instead of “Ajalon“ (Josh. 10:12, 19:42), “Ashkelon“ instead of “Askelon“ (Jud. 1:18), “he went” instead of “she went” (Ruth 3:15), “sackcloth” instead of “sackclothes” (Neh. 9:1), “Kishon“ instead of “Kison“ (Ps. 83:9), “she please” instead of “he please” (Song of Solomon 2:7, 3:5, 8:4), “John the Baptist“ instead of “John Baptist“ (Luke 7:20), “aware” instead of “ware” (Acts 14:6), and “horses’ bridles” instead of “horse bridles” (Rev. 14:20). Darlow and Moule pointed out the brackets and italics in the latter clause of 1 John 2:23 were dropped in this 1852 edition (p. 362). Concerning 1 John 2:23, the Committee noted “as there is no question of its genuineness, both the brackets and the italics have been dropped” (STATEMENTS, p. 9).

Dr. Bob · May 25, 2006

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
. . show me in the MV's where God states He has more than one legitimate translation of His infallible Word.
Click to expand...

Am I missing a salient point here? Were the AV translators, who suggested HUNDREDS of alternative English words, somehow saying that the word they chose was the ONLY correct word for all time?

That is an attack on the AV and I do not appreciate that. Those men showed that a Greek or Hebrew word might have MANY different [and] correct English words.

John 3:15 and 16 would be a classic example. Two DIFFERENT English words translating the exact same inspired Greek word.

I Am Blessed 24 · May 25, 2006

I have a couple of questions and they are probably stupid, but here goes anyway.

First, let me say, that I have no clue as to how many new translations of the Bible exist. I am KJVP, not KJVO.

My questions:

1) What Bible did the new translations come from? Wasn't the KJV the only one to copy?

2) If so, did they just change the words into modern language or did they change the actual meaning?

3) What did God mean, and what book was He talking about, when He said:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part [from the tree] of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19

NaasPreacher (C4K) · May 25, 2006

1) The KJV was partly a revision of several earlier English Bibles and partly a translation for Hebrew and Greek texts. The newer translations come from some of the same of some different Hebrew and Greek texts than the KJV translators used.

2) For the most part they translated from the Greek and Hebrew and did not attempt to "change" the KJV?

3) I don't see how this can apply to any single translation. If so it might apply to a pre-KJV English translation. If that is the case the KJV translators would be guilty of violating it.

TCassidy · May 25, 2006

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
1) What Bible did the new translations come from? Wasn't the KJV the only one to copy?
Click to expand...

The post KJV bibles were translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts. Some of those texts were the same texts the KJV was translated from and some are later texts, produced through the application of "modern scientific textual criticism."

2) If so, did they just change the words into modern language or did they change the actual meaning?
Click to expand...

They translated the texts they were working with into English contemporary at the time of the translation. It is entirely possible to select different English words but still maintain the meaning of the Greek words (synonyms are not our enemy). However, the concept of "meaning" is slippery. You may think a verse means one thing and I may think it means something else. It is best to allow the bible to speak for itself and not force our understanding of "meaning" into the English translation.

3) What did God mean, and what book was He talking about, when He said:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part [from the tree] of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19
Click to expand...

God meant that we are not to tamper with the words which He inspired. Those words were inspired in Hebrew and Greek. When we are certain of what God inspired we cannot, we must not, change His words to suit our doctrinal or philosophical presuppositions.

I Am Blessed 24 · May 25, 2006

Thank you both for the honest, and not argumentative, answers.

§ue

John of Japan · May 25, 2006

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:

3) What did God mean, and what book was He talking about, when He said:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part [from the tree] of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19
Click to expand...

This may be heresy for a Fundamentalist like me, but I'm not even convinced this passage is talking about the whole Bible, since it specifically uses the words, "this prophecy," which I take to mean Revelation. But don't anyone quote me here--I'm still thinking it through.

robycop3 · May 26, 2006

Of the pre-KJV English-language Bibles, Tyndale's(1525-6, New Testament only) was the first to be translated from the Greek texts known at the time. In 1535, Tyndale's student, Myles Coverdale, completed & published the first English Bible made entirely from the Greek and the Hebrew.

Wycliffe's 1384 English version was made from the Latin Vulgate.

The KJV was supposed to be a revision of the 1568 Bishop's Bible & to follow it as closely as the Greek and the Hebrew texts allowed, but the AV men also followed the Geneva Bible quite often, as well as some lesser-known versions. But the Greek and the Hebrew texts were the governing factor in their work.

I believe the KJV ushered in the era of modern English Bibles; it was the first version not made under some kind of duress, made with the help of the Crown, rather than under its emnity, was the first made by a large group of translators, and was freely and openly printed & distributed. Its delay in "catching on" in England was more because it was too pricey for most British to afford, and not because of the "Geneva Bible Onlies", who were much less open than today's Onlyists, because they didn't wanna incur the wrath of the king.

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