KJV vs. New Translations

Eric,

I completely understand your confusion, but amid all the sorting you have to do about different translations, remember this: your salvation is not based on a book, even if it is not flawed. If you found out tomorrow that the KJV was completely untrustworth and the NASB was the most trustworthy, that does not take anything away from your security in Christ. There will come a point when you will have to decide which translation you think uses the best manuscript resources available, and there should be no fear in that. All translations (excluding, of course, the Mormon re-translatioon and the JW Bible - NWT) are "the manger in which Christ is laid."

Daniel Payne

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: paynedaniel ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric:
I give up. Why be a christian if every "translation" out ther is flawed in some way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an important issue and one reason that I am concerned with multiple translations. The quote of Spurgeon in the other thread is well-heeded: update the Bible as necessary for accuracy, but not so much as to damamge the confidence of the believer in the pew. I fear that this is what many translators have done: translate for the sake of translating.

Eric: human translators are just that; human. They are not carried along, inspired of God as the holy men of Old were. They make informed, educated choices of translation. While certain translations are technically more accurate than others, reliable translations are all accurate in that they all same the same things using slightly different words. The message can be trusted in all faithful translations.

 

Eric,
Throw out your Bible and become an Agnostic if you wish, but I read the Bible in more than one English version and believe them to be the Word of God. That argument I have heard from others, and my response is always the same. My salvation is based on Jesus Christ revealed to me through scripture, not on the scripture itself. Too many people base their faith on this or that version, whether they realize that is what they are doing or not, when many of the versions are very accurate and true to the intent and meaning of the author, and can be used by the Spirit to draw people to saving knowlege of Christ.

My comment about Riplinger was not meant to be spiteful, but you should choose a more reputable source as can be seen clearly in the above links. There are more truthful and correct sources that also believe in the supremacy of the KJV, our own Dr. Cassidy being one. Riplinger's agenda IMHO is not one of building up other believers through education in Truth, but of creating a cult following, the new martyrs if you will, like several other people and institutions on the KJVO bandwagon.

 

Eric says:

So the KJV is Flawed and the NIV and The NASB and all the other "translations". What am I to do go out and learn a bunch of Dead Languages?[Ad hominem edited]
Just so I can get the TRUE meaning of What Some guys from 2000+ years ago wrote?

They are not "some guys," they are God's holy prophets and apostles whom God ordained to present his revealed will to the world through the Holy Spirit.

And neither is it a "just so I can . . ." task. It is a holy and praiseworthy undertaking to study and understand the very Word of God. If you believe that what they wrote is truly the Word of God, then wouldn't you agree that it's worth spending some time trying to find out and understand what they actually wrote and actually meant? Wouldn't you agree that learning Greek is a more edifying pursuit for a Christian than atrophying in front of a television?

It is amazing and ironic that so many KJV-onlyists will laud the scholarship of the KJV translators to the high heavens, but if you suggest they spend any time gaining even a fraction of their learning, you are accused of "scholar worship."

It is sad that many KJV-onlyists will praise Robert Wilson, because he "believed the King James Bible" and mastered 45 Middle Eastern dialects to become an authority on the text of the Bible, but if you suggest to a KJV-onlyist that he gain even a working knowledge of the single language the New Testament was written in, he will demand why he should "go out and learn a bunch of Dead Languages".

Why did Wilson do this? Because he didn't want to have to rely on the opinions of men to tell him what the Bible "really" said; he wanted to see it for himself.

From what ive learned now there is no real proof that im evan saved cause the book they used to lead me to the Lord is a Flawed imperfect version.

It's a sad commentary on the Christian Church that it has cast off sound knowledge and plain reason in favour of the naked emotionalism of statements such as above. Truly we live in one of the most anti-intellectual ages the world has ever known. "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god!"

Sorry for venting, but [ad hominem edited]

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

 

Outstanding!!!!! This is what I needed to Hear!!!! thank you all so much you proved to me this wasn't one of those Parody sites set up to prove that Christians are IDIOTS. So i got some more studying to do...good. I think i will continue to us my KJV though God has not convicted me on the matter. I prayed last night about all this and came to one VERY important conclusion, My salvation, my faith in God, and my Convictions are based on what my very eyes see in the world around me. So you guys helped me thats great AMEN!!!! If I was charsmatic Id start dancing a Jig. HEHE Keep this Thread going I got some Questions Now!!!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They are not "some guys," they are God's holy prophets and apostles whom God ordained to present his revealed will to the world through the Holy Spirit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Im sorry in no way did i mean to offend. To me they where just men that God choose becuase they had a deeper understanding of his Grace. If i had to choose which one of the "guys" i Like the most and can relate to i would be Paul. What a Great Guy!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And neither is it a "just so I can . . ." task. It is a holy and praiseworthy undertaking to study and understand the very Word of God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
well we will have to disagree here not all tranlations are the Inspired work of God. Sorry but its true. Look at what the "Christian Cults" have done with their versions that they Sell, Give Away, And copy right like crazy with.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wouldn't you agree that learning Greek is a more edifying pursuit for a Christian than atrophying in front of a television?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes that would be GREAT but im sorry I cant at this point in my life. I attend a Secular School full time to gain a teaching degree here in Arkansas(we need them badlly), Im working a nite time job, Im a active member in my Church, I have a Beutiful Daughter That demands that I give her 100% of my free time, I run my own Game Design Company with a close friend, Im in the US Army National Guard(For the last 11 years now!!! I LOVE my Country ), And last But not least I find time for talking with people like You and Studying my KJV Bible.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Robert Wilson <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whos he? Id like to read about him. I also Like C.S.Lewis(I know that some of you may fill that unwise. I ve read stuff supporting the man and not supporting him.) I have a few books by Jack Hyles, and I bought one on the Rapture by Mark Hitchcock. And while I really like these guys they are Just men and I can only Agree wiyh so much. While you may not beleave it Just because im KJV only does not mean Im a closed minded Clod
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It's a sad commentary on the Christian Church that it has cast off sound knowledge and plain reason in favour of the naked emotionalism of statements such as above. Truly we live in one of the most anti-intellectual ages the world has ever known. "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How like the Rightous to condemd me...No that would be wrong. Im sorry. Really trully im sorry you have this veiw at the feelings im going though. Do you beleave once saved always saved? I do. My Fleshlly sinful body might lead me of the straight and narrow but I KNOW Jesus will always be with me. I agree with you we do live in a "anti-intellectual age" Have you watched Any TV in the last 60 years? Have you seen what Teachers in our schools are teaching children? Have you ever read ANY of the "Science" magazines out there? Your goning to sit at your computer and tell me Im a Anti-Intellectual KJV Only Independant Fundemental Religious Right Back Woods Arkansan, That does'nt now the differance from What some "scholar" says and what some other "scholar" says. Do you think that I picked up Gayles Book and said this is 100% infallible? I Have A NIV and the scripture she used with the NIV is the same as In my NIV. I sat done and compared. I borrowed a Chatholic bible from a freind. I bought me a NASB. I looked up her Referances. Shes not perfect neither are your Favorites they ARE Men and Women in sinnful bodies prone to their own EGOs. Write a book one day about what you beleave and see if 1000+ Scholars dont tear it apart like you have done to my little statments. Should We as Christians continue to debate over How Silly each others resources are or can me a you Ransom become buddies? Hey I LIKE YOU MAN!!! You got edited by Mr.Cassidy!!! You must have really gone one a Rant just like me...If only we could use our powers for GOOD!!! Hey Ransom give me a good book to read and I'll give you one, OK.
We could be a Force to ne reconned with!!!
Eric

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Eric ]

 

Ad hominem edited]

Actually, it was sarcasm, and not directed at any person in particular except insofar as I was responding to Eric.

 

Eric said:

Whos he [Robert Wilson]? Id like to read about him.

A Biblical scholar in the latter half of the 19th century and early 20th, who did a lot of groundbreaking work establishing the authenticity of the Old Testament Text. And this was before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls made much of that work easier (he died in 1930).

I did some basic fact checking in this article, which is brief but might get you started.

I should add that this is Robert "Dick" Wilson, the Biblical scholar, not Robert Anton Wilson, the contemporary novelist and philosopher, who is quite a different animal entirely.

I agree with you we do live in a "anti-intellectual age" Have you watched Any TV in the last 60 years? Have you seen what Teachers in our schools are teaching children? Have you ever read ANY of the "Science" magazines out there?

Yes to all the above, but it only raises the question of why we allow the same mindset in the Church, does it not? You know, the mindset of "Let's not worry about theology/impacting our culture/serious Bible study/going to seminary/whatever, let's just worship Jesus and make sure we're saved." Somehow we make a strange logical leap from "we don't need to do these things to be good Christans" (which is true) to "we shouldn't do these things to be good Christians" (which is questionable).

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The copyright provisions allow for two things: a way to support the translation effort and an attempt to protect the text.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In my NIV it says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In 1967 the New york Bible Society(now the International Bible Society) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the Project... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The effort to translate the bible has allready been done. Are you saying that it has taken from 1967 untill whenever the copy right expires, to pay for this translation?
If so that only proves to me this was done for a profit not for God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As to the first, the NIV is practically as cheap as any other version; whole Bibles are available for less than $3.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes i know this. My KJV cost me $40.
You might say "well Eric dont you see then, I bet your Scofeild Bible is copy righted."
And while the Refferance material in my bible is copy righted, Oxford Failed to copy right The Word of God. Why. Is it nessacary for man to protect the Word of God? It seems to me evan before the much Dreaded KJV God did it on his own. So are you saying that if my bible is not copy righted it is a flawed translation? Are you saying that without a Copy Right God cant express himself in the Word of God? Are you telling me Another Joe Smith will pop up and Make his own version? IF being a KJV only-ist is wrong what about you NIV only-ist? I have learned to open my mind a little here and a least acknowledge other translations. It still does not change the fact that I see something wrong in the Idea that the Other Translations need to Copy right The Word of God Almighty. Do you really think that if the Guys down at NIV central lifted the copyright. And the world rushed out and copyed the Word of God for their own use. Then started going all willy nilly posting verses and sharing the Word of God how they saw fit, that the Word of God would in any way diminish? Let me infrom you on something you copy right to protect a investment. I run a Game design Company. I dont want people using my product without my permission. If they do I want to know who, what, why, when, where, what for, and how much. I want to be compensated for any use of my work. I wrote it I deserve credit. Did the men and women working on the NIV write the Bible? No! Men Inspired by God wrote it. The men and women with the NIV, to put it in the most simpiliest terms COPYED the Word of God. Did God say "thou shall abide by my copyright."? No! show me that verse and we will have a real debate on our hands .Do you think that by telling me that i can get translations for $3 bucks has anything to do with the Copy Right? It cost money to copy right something. It cost money to print something. It cost me money to Sit here and debate with yall. You cant tell me because the NIV can be bought for $3 bucks justifys any thing. I have no problem buying a Bible. My problem is the Copy Right. I read the KJV of the Bible, it cost me $40 bucks. The Mormons give the KJV away for FREE! I can get me a FREE KJV from numerous sources. Did that change my desicion to Buy one. No! I had the Money I wanted A nice Bible. I have a Nice NIV it was given to me as a gift I read it. Ill study my NIV more now Thanks to my new Freind Ransom. Ive opened my mind a little maybe one day ill be one the same page as the rest of you matbe not. Didnt Jesus say if their not against us their for us? Isnt it great that we live in a country where we are free to debate this kind of stuff?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Second, the translators wanted to protect their work. Without a copyright, there is no way to prevent someone from taking the NIV and changing a few things here and there -- or whole passages -- and marketing it as "The New International Version for Baptists Who Lean toward Arminianism."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ouch rsr do you really not like me? Once again do you not trust God to protect his own word? he Did it evan before man could set pen to paper. I think he can do it now without the help of a Law MAN created to protect his Investment.
Any way once again I have RANTED. yuk. rsr lets talk ok.
Eric

 

Eric said:

The effort to translate the bible has allready been done. Are you saying that it has taken from 1967 untill whenever the copy right expires, to pay for this translation?
If so that only proves to me this was done for a profit not for God.

It proves no such thing. There is no conflict between doing work for the glory of God and making a profit from that work. That is true whether you are talking about a storekeeper who sells groceries to the glory of God, a janitor who sweeps floors to the glory of God, a musician who writes songs to the glory of God, or a Bible translator who publishes the NIV to the glory of God.

Are you a mind reader? If not, you have no way of knowing that the NIV translators' motives were nothing but profit.

And while the Refferance material in my bible is copy righted, Oxford Failed to copy right The Word of God.

They didn't fail, the KJV is under perpetual copyright in the United Kingdom.

Regardless of whether it is copyrighted or not, the King James Bible makes its publishers no small profit in any case. So the charge of profiteering simply doesn't stick to the publishers of modern versions. (If you want to lay that charge, lay it at the door of those unscrupulous KJV publishers who charge the same amount for a Bible but don't have to pay royalties.)

Did the men and women working on the NIV write the Bible? No! Men Inspired by God wrote it. The men and women with the NIV, to put it in the most simpiliest terms COPYED the Word of God.

No, Eric, in the simplest of terms, they did not "copy" the Bible, they translated it. That is a creative activity in its own right.

Again, though, this is a red herring. So what if they did merely copy the Bible? If they did it with the purpose of selling those copies, and there are buyers, then they are entitled to make a living off that as well.

Or doesn't capitalism "count" when it comes to selling Bibles?

Once again do you not trust God to protect his own word?

Yes, he could. Tell me, did God's ability to protect his word stop the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Sacred Name people, and so forth, of creating Bible "translations" to support their particular heresies? No, those false Bibles are with us.

God could have simply zapped all the New World Translations out of existence. But he didn't. Perhaps the means that God uses to protect his word from corruption is the zeal of Bible-believing Christians to defend the truth, whether they pursue that by refuting error (as we do with the NWT) or by establishing a legal protection against the theft or corruption of an orthodox translation (as the International Bible Society has done with the NIV).

 

&gt;&gt;&gt;Why is G.A. Riplinger Bad? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

The title of his book suggests that he is one of those paranoid people who fear a one world religion, sort of like the political counterparts who fear a one world government. Most of those are a little flaky.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wester:
. . . his book . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Before you pronounce judgment on a person and their motives it might behoove you to find out just a little bit about them, such as the fact that "his book" is "her book." Gail Ripplinger is a woman!

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

 

Thomas,

Whether the author of the book is male or female, the title is enough for me to form an opinion that it is not a reasonable book. And I note that several agree with that.

 

I seem to recall an old saying about fools judging a book by its cover (title).

 

Put me down as one of those 'Flaky" types who fear the one world religion/govornment/currency.