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KJVO Lies

LarryN

New Member
Originally posted by TC:
There would not be a KJV (or any other Bible) if there were no Hebrew,Aramaic, and Greek sources. The answer is the same today as in 1611 - translate from the original language sources. Just my 2 cents.
As an anology to this thought: Contemplate translating any of Shakespeare's plays from their original Eliabethan-era english into Mandarin Chinese. Then make these claims:

1. The Chinese translation is now superior to the Bard's originals.

2. In fact, the Chinese translation, where inherent differences in the languages make a direct translation difficult or even impossible, can even improve upon or correct the originals.

3. If one furthur needs a translation of Shakespere's plays in Spanish, forget all about translating them from the Bard's original English. Since the Chinese version is now superior & perfect, even in comparison to the originals- it should be the basis for the Spanish translation. Repeat this step from the Chinese into other languages, as needed.

4. Let no one dare claim that the nuances or meanings of any words/thoughts/ideas (as originally written & intended) are best understood from the original English: why, we have the perfect Chinese!

----------------------------------------------

As silly as I hope this seems, isn't it infinitely more tragic that KJVOism attempts to manipulate God's perfect, Holy Word along these same lines?
 

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
I have to admire one thing Bro Lacy - at least you answer instead of obfuscate.

I owuld think your answer would only be "A" because any translation would be different, then how could you trust it?
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by Johnv:
I've got news for ya: English is my second language. I and everyone over 25 in my family learned English as a second language. Elizabethan English is NOT my language. My language is American conversational English. I'm entitled to read a Bible in MY language.
Yes you do but you still don't believe that the version in YOUR language is perfect, so you have to learn Greek. This is the extra-biblical
(heretical?) view. Show me one instance where God limits himself to an "original". The "inspired scriptures that Timothy read as a child were probably GREEK, not Hebrew and whatever they were they were not the autographs.

Read it in your language, but where do you go to try the spirits? To lost autographs, to 5000+ Greek, Hebrew< Latin, Aramaic, German, etc manuscripts, or to the one book that changed the world more than any book in history.

Lacy
 

LarryN

New Member
To lost autographs, to 5000+ Greek, Hebrew< Latin, Aramaic, German, etc manuscripts, ...
Who are we to complain that God (for His purposes and reasons) didn't see fit for us to possess the autographs today? As several have already pointed out, without any of those MSS that you deride, where would the KJV have come from?

Noel Smith is the one who said that "the KJV wasn't let down from Heaven on a golden cord". The KJV translators surely used & valued the MSS they had access to. Without them, we wouldn't today have the KJV, or any other translation of God's Word.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by Johnv:
Have you ever played teh game "telephone", where one person tells another something, and they pass it on, etc? By the time it gets around the room, the original message is lost. To make a translation from another translation would have the same result.
There are only two ways to eliminate the "telephone effect"

1) Have an original autograph, an absolutely perfect grasp on the ancient Greek language, and have a perfect grasp of English (Or whatever language you translated to.)

2) For God to intervene and preserve his word as promised.

If neither one of these happen you "telephone" in any language, including Greek and Hebrew. Do you trust every Greek or Hebrew manuscript? Do you hold to their veracity simply because they are Greek or Hebrew? Do you have a Biblical precedent for believing God preserves via "telephone". (AKA Deistic Preservation) Do you honestly believe that entropy could affect the Word of God without his wanting it to? And if it did would he not raise it up again?

Do you have a biblical precedent for calling me a heretic because I believe God preserves his word perfectly and you don't? Or have you just run out of objective arguments?

Lacy
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by LarryN:
As several have already pointed out, without any of those MSS that you deride, where would the KJV have come from?
I never said they are of no value, and I certainly have never derided them in any way.
God promised to "preserve" Israel. Well they were scattered and dry for hundreds of years. But without those scattered bones, there would be no Israel today.

God promised to preserve the "hairs on my head". So far-not good, but I believe on ressurrection morning my dry dead bones will rise up with a full head of hair perfect and complete.

God promised to preserve Christ. You see where I'm going by now.

I have a BIBLICAL PRECEDENT for the way I believe God preserves things. All the MV position has is a historical/traditional precedent.

Lacy, the heretic who believes a man should have a Biblical precedent for what he believes.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C4K:
Ok, let me rephrase this.

Which must people do to get the Word of God?
A) Learn English
B) Translate from the KJV.
C) Translate from Hebrew and Greek sources
This question appears to deal with two separate issues. "A" would be a very viable and practical option for a Believer wanting to further his education. English is, after all, a very important world-wide language. (Another thread?)

"B" and "C" would seem to be choices as to what we should do to help them. If my choice were these:

A) Teach a person English: (Pretty easy if you ask me.)
B) Translate in his language from the KJV. (This could take years but would be worth it.)
C) Translate in his language from Greek and Hebrew

I would choose "A" and "B". But no-mater how "accurate" and "reliable" the translation, I'd still defer to the KJV for final authority.

As for "C", why? Can you prove that the body of Greek and Hebrew we have extant is closer to the autographs than the KJV? No you can't.

When God breathes on the scattered, dry bones, the end result is just as good as the original and much better than the sum of its dead, dry, scattered parts.

Lacy
</font>[/QUOTE]Lacy,
Have you ever been to a foreign nation as a missionary where you have to learn the language? Your first obligation before teaching anyone English is learning the language yourself. You can't teach what you don't know. I was, and am a missionary to a mid-eastern nation that speaks and writes in a language that uses the Arabic script reading from right to left, and having 36 letters in its alphabet. Many of the letters make sounds that English doesn't have. I have been there for 20 years and still cannot speak fluently enough to speak before a crowd of people, preaching. I can't think fast enough in their language.
A) Teach a person English: (Pretty easy if you ask me.)
Pretty easy eh? Then you go to such a country and do it yourself. Go to the Indian villiages, or Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, in areas where the common person has no idea what English is. Learn the local language, and then teach them the Bible. Learning the language is a lifetime occupation. I am still learning English. Every year Oxford puts out a new dictionary with added words. English is constantly changing.

BTW, each of the above mentioned countries already have their own Bibles easily accesible by their own Bible Society: Pakistan Bible Society, Indian Bible Society, etc. The problem is that the translation of these Bibles (that they have been using for decades) are comparable to the RSV. Are you going to stand up to them, wave that Bible in front of an eager crowd who has come to hear the Bible preached to them, and tell them that they have not the Word of God, thereby destroying their faith. What have they been believing all these years if they haven't had the Word of God?
If you don't know the language well enough, and that is all they know, how are you going to translate the KJV into their language--"a fairly easy job."
I don't think you thought your post through fairly well.
DHK
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by superdave:
(Superdave Shudders again) The powers of Satan at work are an ominous thing to behold
"Yea hath God said"

He is definately at work. After he gets a generation to believe the lie that there has never been, and can never be a perfect inspired Bible, then he has it just a step or two from despair.

Lacy
 

LarryN

New Member
I never said they are of no value, and I certainly have never derided them [MSS] in any way.
Would this statement apply equally to all MSS? For example, would you say that Alexandrian MSS are of greater, equal, or lesser value as the underlying MSS of the TR?
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A) Teach a person English: (Pretty easy if you ask me.)
Pretty easy eh? Then you go to such a country and do it yourself. Go to the Indian villiages, or Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, in areas where the common person has no idea what English is. Learn the local language, and then teach them the Bible. Learning the language is a lifetime occupation. I am still learning English. Every year Oxford puts out a new dictionary with added words. English is constantly changing.
</font>[/QUOTE]You give me their children, a bunch of good English teachers, and I'll teach them English as fast as you can learn the language. (Not to mention, their education will be very much enhanced by their Bi-lingual education. I can back that up with tons of research, I'm a certified ESL teacher. And they will be at a great advantage in an English-dominated business world.) Then they can teach and preach to the non-English speakers out of your translation, and can check the English KJV if they need to see what it "really says" in "the original".

It's gonna take time either way. But I can teach kids English faster than someone can learn the language and translate the Bible into that language. We usually have them out of the ESL/Bilingual program in less than 4 years, depending on at what age they enter the program.

"Easy" is a comparative term.

Lacy
 

LarryN

New Member
Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A) Teach a person English: (Pretty easy if you ask me.)
Pretty easy eh? Then you go to such a country and do it yourself. Go to the Indian villiages, or Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, in areas where the common person has no idea what English is. Learn the local language, and then teach them the Bible. Learning the language is a lifetime occupation. I am still learning English. Every year Oxford puts out a new dictionary with added words. English is constantly changing.
</font>[/QUOTE]You give me their children, a bunch of good English teachers, and I'll teach them English as fast as you can learn the language. (Not to mention, their education will be very much enhanced by their Bi-lingual education. I can back that up with tons of research, I'm a certified ESL teacher. And they will be at a great advantage in an English-dominated business world.) Then they can teach and preach to the non-English speakers out of your translation, and can check the English KJV if they need to see what it "really says" in "the original".

It's gonna take time either way. But I can teach kids English faster than someone can learn the language and translate the Bible into that language. We usually have them out of the ESL/Bilingual program in less than 4 years, depending on at what age they enter the program.

"Easy" is a comparative term.

Lacy
</font>[/QUOTE]Of course, it all makes sense now. Why, it's right in the Great Commission (KJVO version):

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations in English, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them in English to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

Lacy Evans

New Member
Of course, it all makes sense now. Why, it's right in the Great Commission (Autograph-Only version):

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations in Ancient Greek, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them in Ancient Greek to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

michelle

New Member
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Learn their language, learn Biblical languages, and do it the right way. The same advantages that have been given to us should be extended to those with other tongues. They should have a good conservative translation made responsibly from the original language sources.
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So are you saying that it is much better for a native English speaking translator, who only learns Greek and Hebrew impersonally as well as the prospective language to then give an accurate translation through all those different langauge qualifications, is better and more accurate than translationing from the scriptures of their native tongue, to those in another language?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

LarryN

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
Learn their language, learn Biblical languages, and do it the right way. The same advantages that have been given to us should be extended to those with other tongues. They should have a good conservative translation made responsibly from the original language sources.
--------------------------------------------------

So are you saying that it is much better for a native English speaking translator, who only learns Greek and Hebrew impersonally as well as the prospective language to then give an accurate translation through all those different langauge qualifications, is better and more accurate than translationing from the scriptures of their native tongue, to those in another language?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
You've just outlined, and also simultaneously demeaned, the ongoing Blessed, noble efforts of numerous translators who are working for Wycliffe Bible Translators right now in putting God's Word into many foreign languages.
 

michelle

New Member
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You've just outlined, and also simultaneously demeaned, the ongoing Blessed, noble efforts of numerous translators who are working for Wycliffe Bible Translators right now in putting God's Word into many foreign languages.
--------------------------------------------------

So what if this is the truth. You are all undermining the workings and provisions of ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF in our own language. Why do I say this? Because you believe that you can only have God's perfect word for you in the origional languages he gave them in. This to me is unbiblical thinking, and NOT SUPPORTED WITH SCRIPTURES.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by michelle:

So are you saying that it is much better for a native English speaking translator, who only learns Greek and Hebrew impersonally as well as the prospective language to then give an accurate translation through all those different langauge qualifications, is better and more accurate than translationing from the scriptures of their native tongue, to those in another language?

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Yes.
 

LarryN

New Member
Originally posted by C4K:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:

So are you saying that it is much better for a native English speaking translator, who only learns Greek and Hebrew impersonally as well as the prospective language to then give an accurate translation through all those different langauge qualifications, is better and more accurate than translationing from the scriptures of their native tongue, to those in another language?

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]In case my 1st reply wasn't clear enough: Ditto.
 

michelle

New Member
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by michelle:

So are you saying that it is much better for a native English speaking translator, who only learns Greek and Hebrew impersonally as well as the prospective language to then give an accurate translation through all those different langauge qualifications, is better and more accurate than translationing from the scriptures of their native tongue, to those in another language?

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.
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So what then is your final authority? And how do you know?


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 
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