KJVO Pastor Friend Bends a Little

HankD · Dec 26, 2003

Gentlemen are we "straining AT the gnat"?

I'm going to watch some TV eek!

The 6:00 news to see if we have any more mad cows here in WA.

HankD

gb93433 · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by HomeBound:

Originally posted by gb93433:
The problem is that there is not a translation that does not lose some of the meaning.
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Really, what part of the Bible has lost it’s meaning. Was it when God created the heaven and the earth? Or maybe Noah’s ark was not three hundred cubits in length? Where is the meaning lost? Is it when Christ died and rose again on the third day? Maybe he never died. Where is the loss of meaning?

If you have ever done any translation from one language to another you would know this is always the case. I could give you a case where the English is in the present tense and the Hebrew in the imperfect. There is a huge diference.

In the Hebrew it is very similar to English but even some is lost. But in the Greek NT compared to looking at an English Bible is much like walking into a dimly lit room comapared to one that is brightly lit.
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And that’s way I thank God for giving us a Bible in English that we can believe in.

And that is the reason why Matthew Henry started studying Greek at the age of ten. And that is the reason why Seminary students are encouraged to study the languages. That is the reason why seminary students are encouraged to study the languages so that they can understand the critical commentaries. That is the reason why seminary students are encourged to study the languages so they can study the scripture in its original language and not rely on a team of interpreters/translators. That is the reason why seminaries encourage their students to study the languages so that they don't have to follow the interpretations of the pedobaptists who translated the KJV and included the apocrypha.

I assume you didn'tead my earlier posting about my friend who was a missionary during the time of communism in Ethiopia when it was illegal to share your faith and there were informers present in their Bible studies. So you say a man can't grow in Jesus without a KJV. My friend has discipled many who have now have discipled many others at a risk to both his own life and the life of others.
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I say, if he spread the Gospel and souls were saved, praise God.

I guess what you said would go counter to American commitment. An KJVO's that you are aware of that have that kind of commitment as those Ethiopians do? You see they couldn't read a KJV Bible. They didn't speak that language. I wonder what Jesus did with the KJV? Did his disciples grow and give their lives for the gospel. I don't think Paul knew English either.
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So what did your friend use to share the Gospel with the Ethiopians?

A translation in their own language that was not a KJV.

From the Introduction to An Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament by George Ricker Berry, Ph.D.

The Value of Hebrew and Greek to the Clergyman

1. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot understand the critical commentaries of the Scripture, and a commentary that is not critical is of doubtful value.

2. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot satisfy yourself . . as to the changes which you will find in the Revised Old and New Testament.

3. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot appreciate the critical discussions relating to the Books of the Old and New Testament.

4. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot be certain that in your sermon based on a Scripture text, you are presenting the correct teaching of that text.

5. Without some knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, you cannot be an independent student or a reliable interpreter of the Word of God.

6. As much knowledge of Hebrew can be secured in one year with the aid of an Interlinear Old Testament as can be gained of Latin in three years. Greek, though somewhat more difficult, may be readily acquired with the aid of an Interlinear New Testament/Lexicon.

7. The Hebrew language has, in all, 7000 words, and of them 1000 are repeated over 25 times each in the Old Testament.

8. Hebrew grammar has but one form of the Relative pronoun in all cases, numbers and genders; by three forms for the Demonstrative pronoun. The possible verbal forms are about 300 as compared with the 1200 found in Greek. It has practically no declension.

9. Within ten years, the average man wastes more time in fruitless reading and indifferent talk, that would be used in acquiring a good working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek that in turn would impart to his teaching that quality of independence and of reliability which so greatly enhances one's power as a teacher.

10. There is not one minister in ten who might not if he but would, find time and opportunity for such study of Hebrew and Greek as would enable him to make a thoroughly practical use of it in his work as a Bible-preacher and Bible-teacher.
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So unless you study and read the Hebrew and Greek you are wasting your time? What a bunch of B-O-L-O-G-N-A. Do you know how many people do not know Hebrew and Greek? When you go to church this Sunday, ask as many people you can to see if they know the H/G. I guarantee the majority will not. So all those people are wasting time? What a bunch of B-O-L-O-G-N-A.

Did I really say that? I don't think so. A person will spend more time digging if he does not know Hebrew or Greek than if he does know the languages and is able to look at the text directly. Their have been many times where someone has asked me about a text and I took a look at the text and was able to answer their questin from the text. It solves a lot of problems of ignorance and a discussion of ignorance. The languages do not solve everything. I have always said I would rather listen to a man who has read and studied well rather than someone who has al the tools and doesn't use them and is lazy.

If I wanted heart surgery I wouldn't go to a undertaker even though he has seen a lot of hearts. I would go to the heart surgeon because he has that particular skill. So if I wanted to understand the benefits of studying the languages I wouldn't go to someone who is an expert in electronics. I would go to the person who knows and understand the languages. Every Sunday you trust your preacher to do what is right. How do you know that what he tells you is right?

I have heard more nonsense preached by those who do not undertsand the languages and by those who don't care and just preacxh what someone else has. It is people's lives we are dealing with not nuts and bolts. It is their soul we are dealing with. Should we not give them and God our best? Why shouldn't we be the best skilled at doing God's work. Why should we be satisfied with just getting by. A man is required to show proof of practical experience to get a driver's license and a contractor's license but nothing is required to lead people for good or bad. Are you satisfied with that kind of requirement for training to lead others in the maturity of their soul. I take the work God has given me to do more seriously than anything else. It is of utmost importance. Iy is people we are leading not working on their car so let's get it right.

When I read numbers one through nine for the first time that is what motivated me to study the languages and I am glad I did.

Perhaps trying to convince you is like trying to convince a blind man that sight does exist. Until you learn Greek and Hebrew you will never know. So I cannot possibly tell you in terms you will understand. It sounds like you will not be convinced until you study the languages for yourself. I cannot think of one person who has study the biblical languages who would agree with you.

There are those who still believe the world is flat too. Would my telling them make any diference to them? I doubt it. They are already convinced of their ways.

Why do you suppose so many who have pastored return to seminary to get further education? Have you talked with any?

How about if I told you that I have led many more to Christ after seminary than before? Would that make any difference to you? The time I spend on sermon preparation is far less since studying the languages than before I did. It is God's time. You do know that a sharp ax chops more wood.
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Dr. Bob · Dec 26, 2003

Cute Hank. We caught the word play!

I just think watching the "dance" here is oddly amusing. If the NKJV changes a word (uses a different legitimate English choice for the inspired Greek) it is condemned. If the KJV omits a word or changes it, IT is perfect and such cannot be challenged.

Dosey-do, alamande left . .

(Hey, I find humor in odd things. I never could do square dancing in school since it was EVIL and my pastor wrote a note to get me excused. I was a loyal ifb'er!)

Askjo · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by gb93433:
Where does that put those for whom Wycliffe Bible Translators has just published a translation. They have never had the KJV nor a Bible translation.
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There were accurate Bible translations before the KJV appeared.

I wonder what the Christians did in foreign countries who died for Christ without a KJV and maybe only a Bible in their own language. There are the onlies in Germany too. There are those who make the same claim about the Luther Bible.
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Of course, there were accurate foregin Bible translations like Luther Bible for German people. Read Romans 16:26.

How could anyone think that an English KJV is the only Bible that is any good. We need to throw those people in with the Germans who make the same claim about the Luther Bible. Anyone who knows about translation work knows that there is always loss in any translation. Some words do not translated from one culture to another. How do the KJVO's explain the fact that some words are not translated because they do not translate into English.
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ASL is not English, but is Deaf people's native language. Deaf people have trouble with English writing because of the ASL that they spoke all the time. They read the English language and understand it well.

ASL: See dr your you did?

English: Did you see your Dr?

They translated exact word for word.

ASL: House fire yesterday I saw.

English: I saw a fire on a house yesterday.

They translated word for word with correct additions for English clarity.

If anyone need an accurate Bible translation for Germany, you can contact GraceWay Bible Society in Canada because GBS has many accurate foregin Bible translations. Some foreign languages do not have some words that Engliah has.

For example:

automobile for car in English.

Floursecent light for ???? (no word) in other foreign language because they do not have it in their home country.

That is a major problem for foreign translations. I heard that before and learned this fact.

Someone who is KJVO should look up a word like conversation and tell someone if that best translates the word in the Greek. Someone mayhave just forgotten that the English language has changed since 1611 therefore making it a translation that is no longer correct.
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The KJV had approx. 400 changes such as correct spellings and others. The KJV can't be perfect because of 4 revisions.

Askjo · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by robycop3:
Surely you don't believe their choice of Bible versions has anything to do with what "kind" of Christian one is, do you?

That's equivalent to believing the KJV is corrupt because it's the bible of so many quasi-Christian cults. Neither of those views is correct.
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What happened to Dr. Frank Logsdon, a committee member for the NASB?

Askjo · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by HomeBound:
I use the 1769 edition.
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Me, too!

skanwmatos · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by Askjo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
I use the 1769 edition.
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Me, too! [/QUOTE]Why?

Askjo · Dec 26, 2003

Originally posted by HankD:
could you give chapter and verse of one (1) ommission in the New King James that would keep a Child of God from reaching maturity?

HankD
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Look at 1 Peter 2:2 New KJV as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

New KJV footnote said "2:2 NU-Text adds up to salvation."

Salvation by work? Yes, NKJV footnote said so. NKJV does not teach how to be a mature. Therefore the NKJV is incorrect.

Askjo · Dec 27, 2003

Originally posted by Pastor KevinR:
KJV "...the Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus 2:13b The KJV obscures the deity of Christ here, while the NJKV is clearer and better "...our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." We can play this comparison game if you wish, by picking and choosing carefully chosen Scripture, but remember, it cuts both ways, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
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No, I discussed on Titus 2:13 in other posts before. The NKJV is incorrect to translate it because this verse in the NEW KJV refers to double persons.

Askjo · Dec 27, 2003

Originally posted by skanwmatos:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Askjo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
I use the 1769 edition.
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Me, too! [/QUOTE]Why? [/QUOTE]The 1769 KJV is the fourth revision of 1611 KJV.

Dr. Bob · Dec 27, 2003

Originally posted by Askjo:
The NKJV is incorrect to translate it because this verse in the NEW KJV refers to double persons.
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George Orwell would be proud. You have taken the obviously poor translation of the AV and attributed it to the NKJV.

Good is bad. Night is day. War is Peace.

Patently false no matter how much you protest.

gb93433 · Dec 27, 2003

Originally posted by Askjo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
Where does that put those for whom Wycliffe Bible Translators has just published a translation. They have never had the KJV nor a Bible translation.
Click to expand...

There were accurate Bible translations before the KJV appeared.

I wonder what the Christians did in foreign countries who died for Christ without a KJV and maybe only a Bible in their own language. There are the onlies in Germany too. There are those who make the same claim about the Luther Bible.
Click to expand...

Of course, there were accurate foregin Bible translations like Luther Bible for German people. Read Romans 16:26.

How could anyone think that an English KJV is the only Bible that is any good. We need to throw those people in with the Germans who make the same claim about the Luther Bible. Anyone who knows about translation work knows that there is always loss in any translation. Some words do not translated from one culture to another. How do the KJVO's explain the fact that some words are not translated because they do not translate into English.
Click to expand...

ASL is not English, but is Deaf people's native language. Deaf people have trouble with English writing because of the ASL that they spoke all the time. They read the English language and understand it well.

ASL: See dr your you did?

English: Did you see your Dr?

They translated exact word for word.

ASL: House fire yesterday I saw.

English: I saw a fire on a house yesterday.

They translated word for word with correct additions for English clarity.

If anyone need an accurate Bible translation for Germany, you can contact GraceWay Bible Society in Canada because GBS has many accurate foregin Bible translations. Some foreign languages do not have some words that Engliah has.

For example:

automobile for car in English.

Floursecent light for ???? (no word) in other foreign language because they do not have it in their home country.

That is a major problem for foreign translations. I heard that before and learned this fact.

Someone who is KJVO should look up a word like conversation and tell someone if that best translates the word in the Greek. Someone mayhave just forgotten that the English language has changed since 1611 therefore making it a translation that is no longer correct.
Click to expand...

The KJV had approx. 400 changes such as correct spellings and others. The KJV can't be perfect because of 4 revisions. [/QUOTE]You made my point exactly.

robycop3 · Dec 27, 2003

The 1769 KJV is the fourth revision of 1611 KJV.

If the AV 1611 is perfect and inerrant, why not use it? Also, if it is perfect and inerrant, why was it revised?

Pastor KevinR · Dec 27, 2003

Askjo, The NKJV is is just being honest and telling its readers what the NU says. What does the text of the NKJV say there? Are you aware that the Great Bible which some say are in the "good stream" that the KJV is based upon has the same reading as the NU text? The NKJV does not teach works salvation. Read Eph 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 in the NKJV and it'll be made plain...and why'll you're at it, read 1 Cor 14:9 in the KJV1769 and you'll see why most have opted for the MV's. God bless.

Forever settled in heaven · Dec 27, 2003

Originally posted by Askjo:
Look at 1 Peter 2:2 New KJV as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

New KJV footnote said "2:2 NU-Text adds up to salvation."

Salvation by work? Yes, NKJV footnote said so. NKJV does not teach how to be a mature. Therefore the NKJV is incorrect.
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how so?

the NKJV footnote doesn't say WORKS add up to salvation. hey, it's even up there in ur own quote!

try reading it simply in English--what does it REALLY say?

it says WORD, not WORKS (not only diff in meaning, but they're also spelled n pronounced differently ).

we're saved by grace thru faith by hearing of the proclaimed WORD (says Romans), which can make us wise unto salvation (says 2 Timothy). is that salvation by works?

so what's with KJBOism?

USN2Pulpit · Dec 27, 2003

How typical (and tiresome)...another thread hijacked.

Does anyone remember how this thread started? I was greatful that a pastor who was sincerely (but not hatefully) KJVO was still able to find fellowship with me, and that we could praise together for lost souls coming to Christ.

Dr. Bob · Dec 27, 2003

So it is written. So it shall be done.

Thread closed.

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