KJVO - Who actually wins? (Or: What is the real competition)

[Scott J]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
Here is PCC's "Article of Faith." If you don't like it, go to another school.

P.S. What is your definition of a KJVO?

Hey Homebound.

Unfortunately, I am not likely to show up at any college any time soon.

I don't think you got the point. They broke fellowship with BJU because BJU wouldn't affirm KJVO. Actions weigh much more than words. Unless they removed it, you can find the correspondance here: www.bju.edu

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Salvation = Bible Version? Surely you jest.

The things you quoted though...they look like they could have been taken right off my church's web-site. Which is an I.F.B. and KJVO. In fact...I just clicked on the link you provided...and low and behold...my church is listed. Very interesting.

[ January 16, 2003, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by WisdomSeeker:
Salvation = Bible Version? Surely you jest.

No. Not at all. The kid that told my kid that he couldn't be saved without a KJB was 8 at the time. He wasn't kidding.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by WisdomSeeker:
Salvation = Bible Version? Surely you jest.

No. Not at all. The kid that told my kid that he couldn't be saved without a KJB was 8 at the time. He wasn't kidding.</font>[/QUOTE]Some KJV-only supporters that teach this are a lot older than 8. Some are even on this board. "Pioneer" ( name deleted ) from this board posted on his own board the following statement:

"Here is my position: Since I believe that the King James Bible is the word of God, and since I believe that all of the modern bible versions are not the word of God, I believe that God saves souls through the preaching and teaching of the King James Bible only and not through the preaching and teaching of modern versions."

Even famous preachers say such ridiculous things. Dr. Jack Hyles said "If all a person has ever read is the Revised Standard Version, he cannot be born again, because corruptible seed is used, and I Peter 1:23 is very plain to tell us that a person cannot be born again of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed, and it explains that the incorruptible seed is the Word of God, and it explains that it liveth and abideth forever" and "In order to live as a child of God, I must have a perfect Bible...If I have my prayers answered, I must have a perfect Bible...if someone is born again, then the soulwinner must have a perfect Bible" (both quotes from his 1993 book "Enemies of Soulwinning")

[ January 16, 2003, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Bob 63 ]

 

[Pioneer]

If you are going to quote me, then quote me in the context of the question. My position is not an extremist position as you would like to say. I take the Bible literally and therefore came to that conclusion by comparing scripture with scripture. God uses the preaching of His word to save people. Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore God does not use them!

Here is a link to the whole topic:

http://www.pioneerbaptist.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000002

 

[Artimaeus]

I attended HAC for 1 semester, heard Dr. Hyles preach maybe 30 times and I have no recollection of him or anyone else at the school attempting to tell me that the KJV was inspired. I could be wrong but, honestly I don't remember it. I used the New Scofield Reference Bible in all my homework papers and no one even corrected me. I'm not defending Hyles-Anderson just had some first hand knowledge I thought I would pass on.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Pioneer:
If you are going to quote me, then quote me in the context of the question.

What about my post was out of context?

God uses the preaching of His word to save people. Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore God does not use them!

Yes, exactly what I was trying to represent you as saying. You believe God saves through the preaching and teaching of the KJV only. How sad, to limit God like that.

 

[Dr. Bob]

From the PCC doctrinal statement, I would not even get from it that they are extreme KJVonly.

Goes to prove that we can couch beliefs carefully and not reveal that position that we really hold.

Their statement is a far cry from the series of videotapes that were given out to thousands of churches (including mine - we've reused the tapes with Blue's Clues so that they finally can be put to good use!)

 

[neal4christ]

Modern versions are not the word of God

Why not?

 

[Terry_Herrington]

If claiming that a person can only be saved using a KJV bible is not a cult, then the baptist need to apologize to the Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[Johnv]

Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore God does not use them!

No version in English is the word of God. THe only ones that are the word of God are the original Greek and Hebrew. All others are translations of the Word of God.

 

[Author]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore God does not use them!

No version in English is the word of God. THe only ones that are the word of God are the original Greek and Hebrew. All others are translations of the Word of God.

True... and to carry it a logical step further, even the original Greek and Hebrew mss. are simple a RECORD of the Word of God, which has existed since time immemorial and will exist until and beyond the end of this universe. No mere human author could write the totality of God's Word... nor can we readers comprehend it all ... but.. thank the dear Lord, the Bibles in our modern languages certainly give us the infallable guide to everlasting salvation.

So forget whether the KJV is the best--it's not, the best has yet to be translated and published... and that may be thousands of years from now. Use what you have and thank God every day for it.

THAT's what the Word of God asks us to do.

--Ralph

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Modern versions are not the word of God and therefore God does not use them!

No version in English is the word of God. THe only ones that are the word of God are the original Greek and Hebrew. All others are translations of the Word of God.

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here. You must be kidding?? You are calling God a liar and don't even realize it! Psalms 12:6-7 Says, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Either we have God's Words or we don't. If we don't have them, then God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar;

Why would God not want us to have His Words? Why would God give us His Words in Greek and Hebrew, and then just let them disappear? If we have no final authority (God's Words), then we could just do whatever we wanted. If we don't have God's Words, then how do we know we are even saved?

Just stop and think about this for a few minutes. It doesn't make any sense, even if you don't study this thing out, it doesn't make any common sense. Why would God give us His Words and then take them away from us? Why would God not want us to be 100% sure of what He wants from us?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
Psalms 12:6-7 Says, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Either we have God's Words or we don't. If we don't have them, then God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar;

If Psalm 12:6-7 is true, then what didn't perish from the earth is the godly man. Tht is what the Psalm is talking about. It is not talking about the preservation of the words.

Why would God give us His Words and then take them away from us?

He didn't take them away from us. We have them, in the multitude of manuscripts.

 

[The Harvest]

Which manuscript? There are thousands.

 

[The Harvest]

quote:
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Originally posted by The Harvest:
Psalms 12:6-7 Says, The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Either we have God's Words or we don't. If we don't have them, then God is a liar. Are you calling God a liar? Romans 3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar;
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If Psalm 12:6-7 is true, then what didn't perish from the earth is the godly man. Tht is what the Psalm is talking about. It is not talking about the preservation of the words.

I disagree with you here, but OK how about these verses then. Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

It would seem as though God is trying to make the point that His Words are pure. That would mean that if there are any "Bibles" out there with errors that they can't be God's word because God's Words are pure. Also, if God gave us a warning about adding to and taking from the words of the book of this prophecy, we would have to know exactly what those words are. If we don't know what they are (every jot and tittle) then how do we know if we have added to or taken away from?

Just a quick note here...Isn't all of this a little confusing? All this discussion about which version is right and all this talk about Greek and Hebrew. It seems pretty confusing. Who is NOT the author of confusion? 1 Cor 14:33

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
I disagree with you here, but OK how about these verses then. Ps 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The Harvest, simple question for you: In 1605, were Psa 12:6-7, Psa 119:40, Prov 30:5 and Rev 22:19 true, or were they lies?

Just a quick note here...Isn't all of this a little confusing? All this discussion about which version is right and all this talk about Greek and Hebrew. It seems pretty confusing. Who is NOT the author of confusion? 1 Cor 14:33

No, it is not confusing at all. And you are misapplying that verse, even according the the KJV translators (see their marginal note, and the context of that verse).

[ January 20, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[The Harvest]

The Harvest, simple question for you: In 1605, were Psa 12:6-7, Psa 119:40, Prov 30:5 and Rev 22:19 true, or were they lies?

No they were not lies in 1605 during the translating of the KJB. Nor were they lies prior to then either. They were truth in a different language and they are truth in English now. The thing is, that we have no original manuscripts today. And according to God (see verses above and Matt 24:35, Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) His Words must be here somewhere.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a quick note here...Isn't all of this a little confusing? All this discussion about which version is right and all this talk about Greek and Hebrew. It seems pretty confusing. Who is NOT the author of confusion? 1 Cor 14:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, it is not confusing at all. And you are misapplying that verse, even according the the KJV translators (see their marginal note, and the context of that verse).

I don't think I'm misapplying the verse at all. I think God meant what He said when He said, God is not the author of confusion. Whether that verse was specifically talking about the many perversions of God's Word that exist today or not doesn't matter. God is NOT the author of confusion. And maybe it's not confusing to you, but read some of the posts people have written about trying to decide which version to use. There are a lot of confused people out there.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
No they were not lies in 1605 during the translating of the KJB. Nor were they lies prior to then either. They were truth in a different language and they are truth in English now.

The problem is that the KJV was not the first English translation. Among many, the Geneva Bible preceded the KJV and was preferred by the Baptists for years after 1611. It was only after the Anglicans made it a crime to produce or distribute anything other than the KJV did Baptist begin to accept it.

The thing is, that we have no original manuscripts today.

You're right. Instead, God chose to preserve His Word in over 5300 mss, 12000+ ancient versions, and 12000+ ancient witnesses/quotes. With this abundance of evidence, we can be absolutely certain that NOTHING that God chose to say to mankind in the originals has been lost. We can also rest assured that everything He chose to communicate to us can be found in several faithful translations and text collations.

And according to God (see verses above and Matt 24:35, Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33) His Words must be here somewhere.

Your problem is that if this verse means what you interpret it to mean then Jesus lied. The original recordings of His original words did indeed pass away long ago. Of course, He is referring to His sayings not a mystical preservation of the Bible into an English translation 1600 years later.

BTW, what language did Jesus speak these words in? By your definition, unless He spoke them in English the KJV is invalid as the preserved Word of God... as are all translations into any language. And by extension, the Word of God must be hopelessly lost since all 5300 mss differ from one another.

 

[neal4christ]

Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I just wanted to point out that you are misapplying this verse by using it for the whole Bible, it is clearly referring to the book of Revelation alone. Along that line, the KJV is what should be concerned with this verse seeing how it has many peculiar and unique readings in Revelation, since Erasmus didn't have much in the way of Greek texts for Revelation.

Neal