-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Knocking on Whose door? Rev. 3:20 Biblically reclaimed
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
But you didn't account for ALL that he said.
What was the verse ORIGINALLY???? Barns states it was to the church.
What is it that the modern age desires it to mean????? A universal call.
Barnes is recognizing more than YOU allow, and YOU desire to acknowledge - that the ORIGINAL intent was to the church.
It would seem that you would want to hold to the original intent rather than to something that sounds good, feels right, and is "universally" appealing - but you don't in this case. Why is that? It certainly isn't because it follows the original intent of the Scriptures, is it?
If you REALLY were in tune with what Spurgeon was about, you would clearly see that he spent the greater amount of his sermons speaking directly to the condition and heart of the believers not the unbelievers, just as he did in this great sermon.
Jerome wrote:
The greatest denigration here with this modern interpretation is to Christ. It portrays Him just as that sentimental picture presents, an obsequious, hesitant tentative door-knocker.
This is not the way to present Christ to the unsaved. Shock and awe is the model we see in Scripture.
God is presented as awesome and overwhelming in all His perfections (not mawkish or winsome).
If this true picture of God is presented then the the shock will come to the unbeliever: he will realize how sinful he is by comparison. He will know he is in serious trouble. He will see his sin for the deadly soul-damning, fatal disease that it is.
Modern preaching presents Christ too soon - or even exclusively - as a friend of the sinner, rather than presenting a holy God who hates sin.
The greatest denigration here with this modern interpretation is to Christ. It portrays Him just as that sentimental picture presents, an obsequious, hesitant tentative door-knocker.
This is not the way to present Christ to the unsaved. Shock and awe is the model we see in Scripture.
God is presented as awesome and overwhelming in all His perfections (not mawkish or winsome).
If this true picture of God is presented then the the shock will come to the unbeliever: he will realize how sinful he is by comparison. He will know he is in serious trouble. He will see his sin for the deadly soul-damning, fatal disease that it is.
Modern preaching presents Christ too soon - or even exclusively - as a friend of the sinner, rather than presenting a holy God who hates sin.
Last edited by a moderator:
I didn't smear it on Christ. I put it over that phony picture.
It strikes me as bizarre that Christians rally around a fictitional, mawkish, uninspiring "Christ" image - and neglect the Biblical picture we get from all of Scripture.
Christ is to be lifted up, not gilded over, or Thomas Kincaded.
You can invoke Spurgeon's name all you want. As much as I admire the man and have read much from him (especially his Treasury of David) I see (now more than ever) that he was only a man, prone to error like all of us.
Last edited by a moderator:
All of the messages to the 7 churches are universal.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Do you have an ear? If so, all the messages to the 7 churches are intended for you also.
If you desire to deny this, that is your choice.
Calvinists do not like Revelation 3:20 because it says that any man if willing can open the door to Jesus and be saved. It refutes your view, so naturally you try to explain it away.
But even some Calvinists such as Barnes and Spurgeon recognized Rev 3:20 as a universal invitation that applied to all men everywhere.
Believe what you want.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”
John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Is there something wrong to come to Jesus just as you are to learn from Him and to know you can go to Him as a friend just as you are? Would He cast them aside as they meant nothing to Him?
My greatest fear of God is fear what would happen to me without Him in my life. When I am resting in Him I have nothing to fear. He is my refuge, my calm in the storm.
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”
John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Is there something wrong to come to Jesus just as you are to learn from Him and to know you can go to Him as a friend just as you are? Would He cast them aside as they meant nothing to Him?
My greatest fear of God is fear what would happen to me without Him in my life. When I am resting in Him I have nothing to fear. He is my refuge, my calm in the storm.
Last edited by a moderator:
And what is the common phrase in nearly every verse you posted?
"...what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
Not once is the message to the CHURCHES meant to be extrapolated to be universally applied to all humankind. NO WHERE in scripture is such a claim to be made. To make a specific message to the church applicable to all humankind not only diminishes the message, but brings confusion to the message by believers assuming it doesn't apply to them and the assembly.
And what is also common is that each verse says, HE THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR.
Obviously, you do not have an ear.
I am not going to keep arguing with you, believe whatever you want to believe.
You are correct about rev 3;20......Spurgeon often took much liberty ,by way of application of many texts in trying to be evangelistic. When he wrote ,preached or taught he was more accurate. He did not picture people misusing his sermons this way.
The picture of the Hippie outside the door is a second commandment violation.
:laugh::laugh: that will not stop this poster from misreading it however.:thumbs:
And WHO has an ear to hear the Spirit of God?
Is it the unregenerate or the believer?
It isn't asking who would LIKE an ear to hear, it is addressed to those who actually posses the ability of hearing.
Of the world's humanity, who has an ear to hear the Spirit - the believer.
Of the world's humanity, who has no ear to hear the Spirit - the unbeliever.
Jesus said, "MY sheep hear my voice."
Jesus did not say, "All the wolves hear my voice."
(John 1:9-13, 1John 1:5) The Calvinist putting up an argument to claim the message that Jesus being the Light of the world is really a message of darkness…imagine that! 
Oh yes, I could go along with the clever plea to try to understand the necessity for Calvinists to make such a claim, allow them to state their position, and actually I do think I have a keen understanding of why they would feel the need to preach darkness and inability. Unfortunately, this understanding simply reaffirms my belief that their message, which mocks Jesus as being meekly frustrated if His message were a promise of love and truth for all men, is a message that SHOULD be “demonized”. Furthermore, should there be a seeker of the truth reading this tread let me say with all confidence,--------------, answer that door and be born of God.
Oh yes, I could go along with the clever plea to try to understand the necessity for Calvinists to make such a claim, allow them to state their position, and actually I do think I have a keen understanding of why they would feel the need to preach darkness and inability. Unfortunately, this understanding simply reaffirms my belief that their message, which mocks Jesus as being meekly frustrated if His message were a promise of love and truth for all men, is a message that SHOULD be “demonized”. Furthermore, should there be a seeker of the truth reading this tread let me say with all confidence,--------------, answer that door and be born of God.
Last edited by a moderator:
(John 1:9-13, 1John 1:5) The Calvinist putting up an argument to claim the message that Jesus being the Light of the world is really a message of darkness…imagine that!
It is only darkness to the egyptians.....Two ways of seeing......God's way..salvation...mans way...religion
20And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
I praise God for people like Spurgeon a Calvinist.
That he used a message given to a church not to be lukewarm, but to be hot to do the same thing with the body of believers God had in the places Spurgeon was preaching for them not not to be lukewarm. To spread this message given to the church to spread not to to keep to themselves.
That message was used to bring many to Christ, was it used wrong not at all.
Matthew 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
That he used a message given to a church not to be lukewarm, but to be hot to do the same thing with the body of believers God had in the places Spurgeon was preaching for them not not to be lukewarm. To spread this message given to the church to spread not to to keep to themselves.
That message was used to bring many to Christ, was it used wrong not at all.
Matthew 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 “Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.
30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Last edited by a moderator:
The message to the "churches" in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a message to a mixed multitude and a rebuke to all.
Unbelievers (the tares) had infiltrated the local churches: the followers of Jezebel, the Nicolaitans, those of the synagogue of satan, etc.
These local churches are probably representative of divided bickering denominational "christendom" the mixture of the wheat and the tares of Matthew 13 each with an axe to grind.
At the end of the Book of Revelation an invitation goes out to whomsoever will hear it.
Unbelievers (the tares) had infiltrated the local churches: the followers of Jezebel, the Nicolaitans, those of the synagogue of satan, etc.
These local churches are probably representative of divided bickering denominational "christendom" the mixture of the wheat and the tares of Matthew 13 each with an axe to grind.
At the end of the Book of Revelation an invitation goes out to whomsoever will hear it.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Come.
HankD
Tom I just want to add my two cents and that is the total worth.
I believe you hit the nail on the head with this post. I will also go so far as to say I believe the people in Rev. 3:19 are the very same people in Amos 3:2.
You only have I known (To know as in the relationship between a man and his wife, for that is what it was.)
In the OT God stated what he was going to do and who he was going to do it through. That never changed, and the NT shows the carrying out of that plan. Jer. 3 says God gave a bill of divorce to a part of that whole family which God brought out of Egypt and knew. Hosea shows there will be reconciliation which is backed up in the NT.
Sheep?
Agreed. The two passages (Amos and Rev) are very similar in this regard.
One of the most overlooked ways of understanding the Bible is audience relevance: To whom is this passage addressed? This is not to say that others cannot learn from it. For instance I would never say that the Spirit of God would not use that Revelation passage to reach unbelievers. Only that we should keep in mind to whom it was written - and to whom the promise is given.
The same principle applies in places like the Sermon on the Mount. Although the multitude came to Christ, He was not speaking to the multitude, but to His own disciples. The promises were for the smaller set, not the larger.
Much of the problems of Christianity have resulted over the centuries from not observing that distinction of audience relevance.
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge
Literally, virtually, Hodge's rules of interpretation changed everything for me. Throw out the commentaries, expositions (well, not totally, definitely good for reference), and do this, these three simple rules of interpretation is all one needs.
Last edited by a moderator:
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge
Literally, virtually, Hodge's rules of interpretation changed everything for me. Throw out the commentaries, expositions (well, not totally, definitely good for reference), and do this, these three simple rules of interpretation is all one needs.
This is so very important, Kyredneck. I wasn't aware that this was an actual rule that was written out by Hodge, but I now have an even greater respect for him. The first one is one of audience relevance. In very many cases, we are reading someone else's mail! That second one is the negative side of just being diligent with cross-reference research. But this is always with the caveat that Spurgeon offered (in Lectures to My Students, I think) to always be sure that the cross-references are genuine, not imagined or imposed by a system.
That third one is the most important one of all. Without this all the diligence exercised in one and two will still be a useless - worse than useless - exercise in the flesh.
Last edited by a moderator: