Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Whether by individual choice of God, as in, "I choose you".

OR

By means established by God, "I give you My only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Both are EQUALLY EFFECTIVE in God's redemption of man.

And Yes, both require the free will of humans to be effective, because in both scenarios, man makes the ultimate decision regarding his salvation.
Click to expand...

Technically, it certainly does matter.

If any confess Christ as their personal Saviour from sin, by a charitable estimation I consider them to be saved, but God is their judge. The Lord knows those that are His. Such ones might be prone by their actions or doctrine to make me think differently. But beyond that, if any would be saved, they must be born again. Our salvation is not by our doing but is by God’s grace. One must be born again and our birth is not by our doing but instead by God. Again I say, the Lord knows those that are His.

People being as they are described as unsaved men (none righteous, none that understandeth, none that seeketh after God, all gone out of the way, unprofitable, none that doeth good, no, not one, their throat is an open sepulchre, they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips, mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their ways, the way of peace have they not known, no fear of God before their eyes, when they see Jesus there is no beauty that we should desire Him, Jesus is despised and rejected of men - Isa 53:2-3; Rom 3:10-18) doesn’t lend to the notion that salvation is contingent on man doing meritorious actions toward the Lord Jesus Christ. Instead of man doing, Ye must be born again. Salvation is of the Lord.

As salvation is of the Lord, our confession with the mouth and belief with the heart is testimony of what the Lord has done for us. One must be born again, for then only is the confession valid. The deadness prior to our being born again makes us insensible of the separation from the life of God.

Ephesians 4:18 (KJV) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Consider these comments by Geoffrey B. Wilson:

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians, Geoffrey B. Wilson, Minister Of Birkby Baptist Church Huddersfield, © Geoffrey B. Wilson First Published 1978 ISBN 0 85151 263 1

Quote:

V1: And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

The chapter begins with one grand sentence, which celebrates he greatness of the grace that raised the readers from the sepulchre of their sins [vv 1-10].

And you did he make alive, An emphatic address which says in effect: ‘You were the unworthy objects of distinguishing mercy!’ But as Paul actually makes no reference to God's quickening grace until he has first made clear their abject plight by nature [vv 1-3], it is better to omit the italicized words supplied by the translators to ensure a smoother reading. It is vital to grasp the significance of the apostle's method [cf Rom ch. 1-3], because an inadequate doctrine of sin always leads to slight views of grace and also leaves ajar the door that admits error. ‘“Never was there a heresy, but it had something to do with an insufficient estimate of sin.” And an insufficient estimate of the “thing which God hateth” is not only the parent of speculative error; it is the secret death of true spiritual joy’ (Moule, Ephesian Studies, p. 70).

when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, ‘Trespasses and sins’ are two plurals which vividly recall the multiplied aggravation of their guilt before God. [1] Being dead while they lived, their activity was then the activity of death [vv 2,3]. This deadness made them insensible of their separation from the life of God [4.18] and of his just condemnation of their wayward walk [v 3], even as it also left them without either the ability or the inclination to arise from the tomb [v 5]. Thus they were destitute of all spiritual life, ‘having no hope,’ because they were ‘without God in the world’ [vv 11, 12].

[1] But if the terms are not used synonymously, then ‘trespasses’ would indicate the deliberate transgression of the law, while ‘sins’ would point to the ‘missing of the mark’ set for them by God.

End quote.
Click to expand...

OldRegular · May 13, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.
Click to expand...

What do you imagine? Were the Thessalonian Christians that Paul wrote to all apostles?

1 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. [/QUOTE]Bob

In case you haven't noticed when Wes comes across apassage of Scripture he doesn't agree with [Ephesians 1:3-6; 2:1-10; Romans 8:29, 30] he just claims it applies to the Apostles.

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

lol

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

2 John 1:1 (KJV) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

Is this from 2 John 1:1 referring to an apostle?

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

Shall we search to see how each of these references to elect/election is used?

Ref elect/election:
Mt 20:16; 22:14; 24:22,24,31; Mr 13:20,22,27; Lu 18:7; 23:35; Ro 8:33; 16:13; Col 3:12; 1Ti 5:21; 2Ti 2:10; Tit 1:1; 1Pe 1:2; 2:4,6,9; 2Jo 1:1,13; Re 17:14; Ac 9:15; Ro 9:11; 11:5,7,28; 1Th 1:4; 2Pe 1:10

Bob Krajcik · May 13, 2005

Shall we search to see how each of these references to apostle is used?

Ref apostles:
Mt 10:2; Mr 6:30; Lu 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Joh 13:16; Ac 1:2,26; 2:37,42-43; 4:33,35-37; 5:2,12,18,29,34,40; 6:6; 8:1,14,18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4,14; 15:2,4,6,22-23,33; 16:4; Ro 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1-2,5; 12:28-29; 15:7,9; 2Co 1:1; 8:23; 11:5,13; 12:11-12; Ga 1:1,17,19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Php 2:25; Col 1:1; 1Th 2:6; 1Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2Ti 1:1,11; Tit 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1Pe 1:1; 2Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 1:17; Re 2:2; 18:20; 21:14

Bob Krajcik · May 14, 2005

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
oops!
Click to expand...

oops?

Wes Outwest · May 14, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.
Click to expand...

What do you imagine? Were the Thessalonian Christians that Paul wrote to all apostles?

1 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. [/QUOTE]Seems you are taking scripture OUT OF CONTEXT to make your point here's why:

[1 Th 1:2] We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
[1 Th 1:3] Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
[1 Th 1:4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
[1 Th 1:5] For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
[1 Th 1:6] And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
[1 Th 1:7] So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
[1 Th 1:8] For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
[1 Th 1:9] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
[1 Th 1:10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Click to expand...

So, election is not what you claim it is, but rather that "They heard the word, boldly preached, and received it because of the credibility of the preacher. They then became followers of not only the Lord, but of Paul too!

Sounds pretty common among Christian believers. Faith Cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. All who heard and believed became Christian!

Bob Krajcik · May 14, 2005

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

Bob Krajcik · May 14, 2005

Perhaps another day. . .

Wes Outwest · May 15, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.
Click to expand...

What do you imagine? Were the Thessalonian Christians that Paul wrote to all apostles?

1 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. [/QUOTE]They were elected the same way you were elected, By means established by God, "I give you My only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

Wes Outwest · May 15, 2005

Originally posted by Bob Krajcik:
2 John 1:1 (KJV) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

Is this from 2 John 1:1 referring to an apostle?
Click to expand...

No sir, the elect in this instance is an Apostle speaking of the church.

The apostle was an elect of God from the foundation of the world. The Church is the result of the work of that apostle and the other apostles It is by their individual and collective belief in God, that they are elect.

The church, "the elect lady", is comprised entirely of those who have "heard" and "believed".

John 17:20 I pray not only for these (the eleven) but also for those (the church) who through their teaching will come to believe in me.
Click to expand...

What is the church if it is not the collective of believers in the Christ? The church was elect of God, he foreordained that there would be a church, Did all the work himself to caused that to happen, even to sacrificing his Only begotten Son in order to clear the way for SALVATION THROUGH FAITH! (not through election)

Bob Krajcik · May 15, 2005

Wes, Outwest

Those chosen by the Father before the foundation of the earth are given to the Son (Joh 6:39,63,65; 17:24; Eph 1:4), the Son makes atonement for them (Joh 10:11; Eph 1:5,7), and those Christ gave His life for are regenerated by the Holy Ghost. Not all men have faith (2Thes 3:2; Acts 28:24). Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23). Salvation is of the Lord. All praise belongs to Him! Salvation is not through the caprice of men, but is according to the will of God. A work by the Holy Spirit is required, the new birth, before a man is drawn to Christ.

When one is born again, the mind is cognizant and discovers that some things are abhorred and some things desired, and that there is a hungering and thirsting, and clearly these things not part of the natural unregenerate man (2Cor 2:14). With the new birth there is faith given, otherwise why would there be a thirsting, hungering, that hopes for new things, that causes a man to think different about some things and act different. Truth is written on the heart and inward parts (Jer 31:33; Heb 8:11; 1Pet 1:23; Ps 37:31). There is warning given by Paul the word of God can be corrupted (2Cor 2:17), but Christ Himself is incorruptible (Heb 1:12; 13:8) (same yesterday today forever), so their is confirmation the rebirth is not accomplished by the hearing of the word that is preached, but rather, one is born of God Himself (Eph 2:1; Tit 3:5; 1John 2:29; 5:1; John 1:13; Rom 2:28-29). Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). One is born again, by the Spirit. The new birth imparts Eternal Life and new desires (Ps 110:3; 37:31; 1John 3:6,9; 5:18; Ps 119:165; 2Cor 5:17; Eze 36:26; John 3:6; 10:28; Tit 1:2; 3:7; Rom 12:3). Regeneration is accomplished without the use of means, while conversion is accomplished by the use of means. The change wrought by the new birth results in conversion. There can be no conversion without regeneration. Regeneration and conversion are separate and distinct. There is conversion resulting from the new birth, and subsequent conversion from hearing the word preached is usual.

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Seeing these things you say have been mentioned previous, I think I will take my leave and look around at some other threads. You have expressed your understanding, and I have presented my case. Thank you for your time. Perhaps there will be new points, or new perspectives for further conversation.

In closing, I understand about election and regeneration, but there is also a harvest. A title of our Lord is, "The Lord Of The Harvest." As believers, we are to follow Christ, and he will make us fishers of men. Christ looked at the masses with compassion, and described them as sheep without a shepherd, white already to harvest, plenteous, but the labourers few. The atonement is finished, but the work of going is not (Joh 20:21; 10:11; Matt 9:36-38; 1Pet 2:21-25). The Lord knows those that are His, and not one will be lost.

By grace,
Bob

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The elect can be identified by other men prior to their coming to faith.

True

False

Other

Bob Krajcik New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Useful Searches

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

The elect can be identified by other men prior to their coming to faith.

True

False

Other

Bob Krajcik New Member

OldRegular Well-Known Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Wes Outwest New Member

Bob Krajcik New Member