Knowing God's Perfect Will is as simple as...

[Luke2427]

Yes you need to show me where God intended for men to sin.

The examples are vast.

I'll just give one:

Acts 4

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[freeatlast]

The examples are vast.

I'll just give one:

Acts 4

27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Come on, that passage does not teach that God intended men to sin in His creation. That passage teaches that God predestined men who were already sinful to carry out His plan.

 

[Luke2427]

Come on, that passage does not teach that God intended men to sin in His creation. That passage teaches that God predestined men who were already sinful to carry out His plan.

It teaches that very thing.

God intended that sinful men commit the sin of murder in killing the Son of God.

The Bible could not be clearer.

Why is it not sin for God to ordain that sin come to pass?

Because sin is from THE HEART.

The HEART of God in crucifying his Son was pure and holy. He lovingly sought to bruise his Son and make him an offering for sin so that BILLIONS could be saved and his Son could achieve a glorious victory for which he would receive glory and honor from billions of people forever and ever.

That is God's motive in killing his Son. So for God, this is not evil.

For the humans who killed Jesus- it was murder.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

He built a world in which sin would come to pass on purpose.

He could have built a world in which sin would not come to pass if he wanted to.

Without sin there is no Lamb of God receiving forever the praises of a multitude which no man can number of redeemed people from every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue on earth.

Jonathan Edwards said it best:
God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.

He also explained why sin is important:


It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God's glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent, that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all. . . .

Thus it is necessary, that God's awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God's glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all.

If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God's holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God's grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired. . . .

So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature's happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect.

And on this I disagree with you totally.

God built a world in which His sentient beings have the freedom of contrary choice. He had to do this because freedom is part of His character, as is love. He gave us freedom because that is Who He is, and because He loves us.

 

[Luke2427]

And on this I disagree with you totally.

God built a world in which His sentient beings have the freedom of contrary choice. He had to do this because freedom is part of His character, as is love. He gave us freedom because that is Who He is, and because He loves us.

No sir. God did not HAVE to do this.

Freedom is not that important to God. We will not have the power of contrary choice throughout all of eternity once we leave here.

If this "free will" thing even exists at all, it is clear that it is a very temporary thing. For each human being, if he EVER has it, he only has it for a few years down here and then it is gone forever.

It is not that important. God himself does not have it (if you define it as the power of contrary choice) so it did not come from some part of his character.

God the Father did not have the power to NOT love the Son forever in eternity past- not for a millisecond. He does not have the power of such contrary choice now. He will never have it throughout the endless ages of eternity.

It is not that great of a thing then if it exists at all.

The greatest love is displayed when the power to do otherwise does not even exist.

So, respectfully, my brother, you are bad wrong here.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

No sir. God did not HAVE to do this.

Freedom is not that important to God. We will not have the power of contrary choice throughout all of eternity once we leave here.

If this "free will" thing even exists at all, it is clear that it is a very temporary thing. For each human being, if he EVER has it, he only has it for a few years down here and then it is gone forever.

It is not that important. God himself does not have it (if you define it as the power of contrary choice) so it did not come from some part of his character.

God the Father did not have the power to NOT love the Son forever in eternity past- not for a millisecond. He does not have the power of such contrary choice now. He will never have it throughout the endless ages of eternity.

It is not that great of a thing then if it exists at all.

The greatest love is displayed when the power to do otherwise does not even exist.

So, respectfully, my brother, you are bad wrong here.

And because I respect you and the manner in which you debate, I hope you don't take this as a personal attack because it is not. It is a statement concerning doctrine: I simply hate and despise Calvinistic determinism and fatalism. I believe it is the most false and damaging doctrine of all. I believe the two words that are at the top of the list in describing God's character are love and freedom. I would also put mercy and compassion up there.

So, we are very far apart on this, and so of course I would consider that it is you and not I who is bad wrong.

But you are still my brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

And because I respect you and the manner in which you debate, I hope you don't take this as a personal attack because it is not. It is a statement concerning doctrine: I simply hate and despise Calvinistic determinism and fatalism. I believe it is the most false and damaging doctrine of all. I believe the two words that are at the top of the list in describing God's character are love and freedom. I would also put mercy and compassion up there.

So, we are very far apart on this, and so of course I would consider that it is you and not I who is bad wrong.

But you are still my brother.

Michael,
Some of us would view the two words.....as Holy and Righteous....before any other attribute of God.

ie, a Holy Love
a righteous Love...etc. i do not think you would dispute this...

Your aversion to calvinism could be that you do not see that calvinists see whatever God does...as Holy and Just,and righteous and loving also.

The other day you said that non cals believe in the doctrines of grace...although we both understand what you mean by the statement.
If memory serves me correctly...one reason i sort of opposed you quite vigorously in times past was....{i think it was you}.....that you were saying something about the judgements in the OT......not being as scripture says they were??? If it was you who posted these ideas...that would explain why you would in part resist calvinistic teaching which would seek to biblically reconcile all posted verses as of God, as written....just an idea for you to consider. in other words
The God who brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly, is the God of jn 3;16
some day we can discuss this face to face...Lord willing

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Michael,
Some of us would view the two words.....as Holy and Righteous....before any other attribute of God.

ie, a Holy Love
a righteous Love...etc. i do not think you would dispute this...

Your aversion to calvinism could be that you do not see that calvinists see whatever God does...as Holy and Just,and righteous and loving also.

The other day you said that non cals believe in the doctrines of grace...although we both understand what you mean by the statement.
If memory serves me correctly...one reason i sort of opposed you quite vigorously in times past was....{i think it was you}.....that you were saying something about the judgements in the OT......not being as scripture says they were??? If it was you who posted these ideas...that would explain why you would in part resist calvinistic teaching which would seek to biblically reconcile all posted verses as of God, as written....just an idea for you to consider. in other words
The God who brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly, is the God of jn 3;16
some day we can discuss this face to face...Lord willing

I understand what you are saying, and you do make good points. I do believe that God is a God of judgment as well as a God of love, and that holiness and righteousness are two of God's main attributes.

 

[Luke2427]

And because I respect you and the manner in which you debate, I hope you don't take this as a personal attack because it is not. It is a statement concerning doctrine: I simply hate and despise Calvinistic determinism and fatalism. I believe it is the most false and damaging doctrine of all. I believe the two words that are at the top of the list in describing God's character are love and freedom. I would also put mercy and compassion up there.

So, we are very far apart on this, and so of course I would consider that it is you and not I who is bad wrong.

But you are still my brother.

I understand.

God bless you, brother Michael.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I understand.

God bless you, brother Michael.

Thanks! God bless you, too.

In spite of how I feel about Calvinism, one of my best friends on here in years past was a Primitive Baptist, Jeff Weaver. He always without fail showed the fruit of the Spirit in his discussions with me.

In fact, I like the Primitive Baptists; I find them to be consistent and genuine.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand what you are saying, and you do make good points. I do believe that God is a God of judgment as well as a God of love, and that holiness and righteousness are two of God's main attributes.

Michael,
All believers know this, so I knew you would agree. That does not make some portions easier to handle....emotionally. I think you are maybe more compassionate, by personality...so I can understand your struggle with some portions of judgement.
I think all of us were somewhat stunned by some of what we read;
The flood upon the world of the ungodly
Sodom and Gommorah
destruction of the Amalikites.
185000 killed in one night

We in discussing these things go past them somewhat casually, yet they were actual people who perished. Death is a startling reality....we should not take it lightly...if anything it should fuel oue evangelism;

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paul in Romans 1 says the wrath of God is revealed....itwas on His mind.

Some believers are more mild mannered.....but all of us should pause and be thankful that God has not cut us off before making Himself known to us.

 

[Yeshua1]

What scripture are you basing that on?

A principle throughout the Bible!
Abram told by God to go to a land of promise, details filled ina s he went

Same with Moses

Same with Apostle paul

God commissioned them to go out to do his will, but filled in the rest as they walked forward with him!

 

[Yeshua1]

But He did not build a world so it would be riddled with sin. There is a big difference.

In order to perserve his sovereignity and to some degree our 'free will", and for Him to receive the greatest glory...

He created this present Earth and mankind, having already predestinated to have His choen ones saved by his grace, inorder to bring glory to his name!

this is the best that is possible,as god knows All options available, and this one was the best way to have everything done!

 

[Yeshua1]

And because I respect you and the manner in which you debate, I hope you don't take this as a personal attack because it is not. It is a statement concerning doctrine: I simply hate and despise Calvinistic determinism and fatalism. I believe it is the most false and damaging doctrine of all. I believe the two words that are at the top of the list in describing God's character are love and freedom. I would also put mercy and compassion up there.

So, we are very far apart on this, and so of course I would consider that it is you and not I who is bad wrong.

But you are still my brother.

ONLY hyper cals have God fully determining all things, PERIOD, and that all that happens is predetermined without ANY human response/involvement!

You can tell when one is attacking a false view of cal, as they usually will bring up God as a Puppet master, and we are the puppets that strings he pulls!