Knowing vs. Feeling in Worship

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes... and I have been looking for it for a long time. Actually it’s only 921.9 miles, Winter Garden is lovely! And I can wear a hand gun inside. What’s better than that!

Oh you’d like this Tony, they believe in Doctrines of Grace! Isn’t that one of your primary criterion ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'll be away from home for a...while. Maybe I'll log in one Sunday.

Please do... you could even click on to sermons now if you wish.

wintergardenpbc.com

 

[Reformed]

I'll be away from home for a...while. Maybe I'll log in one Sunday.

Just keep your emotions in check.

 

[Rob_BW]

Just keep your emotions in check.

I promise not to speak in tongues while internet attending.

 

[Reformed]

I promise not to speak in tongues while internet attending.

Speak in tongues? You know you are really gifted if you can type in tongues!

 

[Rob_BW]

Speak in tongues? You know you are really gifted if you can type in tongues!

I just use Google Translate.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I promise not to speak in tongues while internet attending.

No worries, it isn’t a Calvinist church.... no double predestination.

 

[rlvaughn]

Since versus means "against" or "in contrast to," I find "Knowing vs. Feeling in Worship" -- even though I believe I do understand Begg's point. Truth precedes knowledge, and knowledge precedes feeling, or iow, it doesn't matter what you're feeling if it in "in contrast to" truth. But will truth and knowledge make us feel something. Most definitely!

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Psalm 13:5-6 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. I will sing unto the Lord, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Ecclesiastes 3:4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Ephesians 5:19 speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

 

[Reformed]

Truth precedes knowledge, and knowledge precedes feeling

Nice and concise.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks. Perhaps I should have said "the right kind of" feeling, though I suppose that would be understood in context. There is plenty of feeling in a religious sense that doesn't proceed from truth!

 

[JonC]

Since versus means "against" or "in contrast to," I find "Knowing vs. Feeling in Worship" -- even though I believe I do understand Begg's point. Truth precedes knowledge, and knowledge precedes feeling, or iow, it doesn't matter what you're feeling if it in "in contrast to" truth. But will truth and knowledge make us feel something. Most definitely!

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Psalm 13:5-6 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. I will sing unto the Lord, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Ecclesiastes 3:4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Romans 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Ephesians 5:19 speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

I agree somewhat - except Scripture often presents one's feelings as the galvanizing factor leading one to truth. Godly sorrow is only one example (of an interdependence as this sorrow is based on a knowledge of sin, but that is also based on a conviction).

This is why I view the dichotomy as false. There is an interdependence.

 

[Reformed]

I suppose that would be understood in context

Brother, this the Baptist Board where NOTHING is understood in context.

 

[rlvaughn]

I agree somewhat - except Scripture often presents one's feelings as the galvanizing factor leading one to truth. Godly sorrow is only one example (of an interdependence as this sorrow is based on a knowledge of sin, but that is also based on a conviction).

So you can have godly sorrow and conviction apart from the coming of truth? I'm not sure what you are saying.

 

[JonC]

So you can have godly sorrow and conviction apart from the coming of truth? I'm not sure what you are saying.

Not "apart from". They are interdependent.

Have you ever considered means of conveying truth apart from knowledge?

Sacred architecture (a thing of the past), sacred music (again, in itself a thing of the past) are two examples where emotion may precede knowledge without compromising truth. In other words, there are truths that are not always expressed in words.

This, I believe, is what Paul was refering to when he refered to the benefit of spiritual gifts in private to the spirit but not for edification of the mind.

We live in a very intellectual culture so it is natural (humanistically) for these things to be things of the past.

Our culture looks at things like poetry and tries to decipher what the artist meant when what the artist was communicating may transcend that type of knowledge. That is foreign to our culture. But God is no less powerful than these men, and God is not dependent on our ideologies.

 

[rlvaughn]

I get part of what you are saying, but...

It seems to me that if godly sorrow and conviction and truth are truly interdependent, then godly sorrow and conviction would have to be eternal. They are not. Truth doesn't depend on them.

Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[JonC]

I get part of what you are saying, but...

It seems to me that if godly sorrow and conviction and truth are truly interdependent, then godly sorrow and conviction would have to be eternal. They are not. Truth doesn't depend on them.

Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

one thing I've noticed (not with you but with others) is tgat they would rewrite Jesus' words to replace "truth" with "knowledge".

Truth is conveyed by knowledge in terms of facts But truth is also conveyed in other ways (as illustrated). God's power can be communicated in words (God is omnipotent) or in inexpressible emotion as one watches an approaching storm. Both are grounded in truth, but both cannot be defined as knowledge about God.

 

[rlvaughn]

Too late to edit now, but this sentence should have been:

Since versus means "against" or "in contrast to," I find "Knowing vs. Feeling in Worship" unhelpful -- even though I believe I do understand Begg's point.

IOW, they don't have to be against one another, though they sometimes are.

 

[Reformed]

Too late to edit now, but this sentence should have been: IOW, they don't have to be against one another, though they sometimes are.

I do not think Begg believes they are against each other only to the extent that Christians make them so. You see extreme examples of this in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. In non-Charismatic evangelicalism, feelings before truth/knowledge are seen in more subtle ways. I have cited this example before but the slow-jam music during prayer or the end of a sermon is a perfect illustration. Prayer and the Word are not enough. We have to put people in a worshipful state. Do these parts of worship really need a soundtrack? Of course, I am coming from this from a Reformed, RPW perspective. I understand I hold to a minority view among my fellow Baptists.

 

[rlvaughn]

...Prayer and the Word are not enough. We have to put people in a worshipful state. Do these parts of worship really need a soundtrack? Of course, I am coming from this from a Reformed, RPW perspective. I understand I hold to a minority view among my fellow Baptists.

Perhaps that is true today. It would not have been when and where I was growing up. They were not Reformed, but held a sort of Regulative Principle, not in so many words. I think where we started driving off in the ditch was when our older people still believed in this kind of principle, but could not (or did not) articulate it or explain it correctly to the next generation.

 

[Reformed]

I think where we started driving off in the ditch was when our older people still believed in this kind of principle, but could not (or did not) articulate it or explain it correctly to the next generation.

This is important. Are we preaching at the younger generation or are we teaching them? Worse yet, have we become apathetic? Nature is not the only thing that abhors a vacuum.