Lack of education on logic the problem

[Luke2427]

No quote will be forthcoming to support this complete fiction

Take this quote from the first page:

Can't you use your fantastic logic to work it out. The fact is that anything spiritual cannot be logical because, spirits do not exist in a logical world. Spirits just are not logical. Guess what God is Spirit and therefore not logical. Only Jesus Christ saves and that isn't logical either. How ever it is true. Oh that's illogical too.
MB

Or this one by Winman on page two:

Jesus said if he denied he knew his Father he would be a liar, which suggests that in theory he could lie.

Jesus is God, and he died on the cross.

Or this one on page 5 by webdog

I am flattered my name was part of the OP. I have no problem believing God can and can't do something. If the Bible teaches it I accept it on faith, not logic. I'm glad you have it all figured out, Luke. Maybe the line starts behind you when crowns are passed out.

Or this one from Alive in Christ on page 8:

Luke 2427...

If you think that God is LOGICAL, then you are furtur down the pike then I thought. Further down the pike then even (( Iconoclast ))

Or this one from Skandelon on page 11:

Luke, is an uncaused cause logical?

Is a person claiming to be one and three logical?

Is a person claiming to be fully God and fully man logical?

Is it logical for a man to be dead for 3 days and then be brought back to life?

Is it logical for a human to walk on water?

If this is all perfectly "reasonable and logical" according to human standards then how can you conclude that faith is even necessary in order to accept such claims?

Or this one by In the Light on the same page:

Thanks for posting this, you beat me to it. I'll add:

Is it logical that Jesus was born of a virgin?

Is it logical that Jesus can give vision to the blind, raise the dead, make the lame walk?

It could be that Jesus didn't know the hour of His 2nd coming while he was walking the earth, how can our puny human minds reason it out? I would have to assume that God's logical trees, if they exist, have many more branches than humanity's. They probably cross multiple dimensions as well.

In Skan and ITL's posts they are asking whether these things are logical in an attempt to imply that you can't apply logic to God. That's the point of this thread- to show how poorly educated so many members of bb are concerning logic and how uncommitted they are to its authority over their theologies.


I could go on and on. But I think I made my point.

 

[InTheLight]

Well that is the unmitigated, unadulterated DEFINITION of violating the law of noncontradiction.

Q: When Christ was walking the earth was he a human and was He God?

A: Yes. And isn't that a contradiction for human reasoning?

 

[Luke2427]

Q: When Christ was walking the earth was he a human and was He God?

A: Yes. And isn't that a contradiction for human reasoning?

No it is not a contradiction.

I am mortal human flesh and everlasting spirit.

Those things do not contradict each other.

An object has takes up space in three dimensions at the same time: height, width and depth.

The fact that an object is high wide and deep is not contradictory.

There is nothing about the hypostatic union that violates any fundamental law of logic.

 

[InTheLight]

No it is not a contradiction.

I am mortal human flesh and everlasting spirit.

Of course, you can prove that you have an everlasting spirit, correct?

An object has takes up space in three dimensions at the same time: height, width and depth.

The fact that an object is high wide and deep is not contradictory.

Yes, that's all well and good. Humans can see the three dimensions, measure them and manipulate them with mathematics.

There is nothing about the hypostatic union that violates any fundamental law of logic.

Nothing about it that violates God's rules of logic. But human rules of logic? That's a different story.

 

[preachinjesus]

No it is not a contradiction.

I am mortal human flesh and everlasting spirit.

Those things do not contradict each other.

An object has takes up space in three dimensions at the same time: height, width and depth.

The fact that an object is high wide and deep is not contradictory.

There is nothing about the hypostatic union that violates any fundamental law of logic.

Well....that can be true if Jesus' incarnation was only humanity with humanity. However, Jesus' incarnation (the hypostatic union) is the union of a human body (with all its functions) with the divine essence (with its functions.) Ontologically this is a hugely significant union.

I agree it isn't, inherently, contradictory. However, we need to be mindful that the union isn't like the flesh combined with soul. This is entirely different, the flesh (sarx) fused with the divine (logos.) Massively different.

 

[Luke2427]

Of course, you can prove that you have an everlasting spirit, correct?

What does that have to do with anything- whether or not I can prove it?

Yes, that's all well and good. Humans can see the three dimensions, measure them and manipulate them with mathematics.



Nothing about it that violates God's rules of logic. But human rules of logic?That's a different story.

Explain to me what are these "human" rules of logic and how they are different from divine laws of logic.

 

[Luke2427]

Well....that can be true if Jesus' incarnation was only humanity with humanity. However, Jesus' incarnation (the hypostatic union) is the union of a human body (with all its functions) with the divine essence (with its functions.) Ontologically this is a hugely significant union.

I agree it isn't, inherently, contradictory. However, we need to be mindful that the union isn't like the flesh combined with soul. This is entirely different, the flesh (sarx) fused with the divine (logos.) Massively different.

Different, sure.

But it does not violate the law of noncontradiction in the same way that the soul and flesh of man co-existing do not violate that law.

That is why my anecdote is applicable and did not require correction- unless the goal is perhaps an effort to "humble me" since you perceive I am trying to do that to others?

 

[webdog]

Different, sure.

But it does not violate the law of noncontradiction in the same way that the soul and flesh of man co-existing do not violate that law.

That is why my anecdote is applicable and did not require correction- unless the goal is perhaps an effort to "humble me" since you perceive I am trying to do that to others?

Being both infinite and finite simultaneously doesn't violate the law of non contradiction?

 

[quantumfaith]

I "think" being a mathematician, that perhaps we might be confusing logic and absolute truth. Logic, appears to be an invention of man....a linguistic an symbolic exercise in semantics. Although I would agree that God is not illogical, I would hesitate to make the claim that logic is some necessary attribute of God such as the "omnis". In our human experience logic does at times lead to paradoxes a google search will reveal some of the paradoxes that can be obtained even with logical logic.

Achilles and the Tortoise
The Paradox of the heap
The Liar Paradox (which perhaps the apostle Paul addressed)
The Problem of the Specious Present

 

[InTheLight]

What does that have to do with anything- whether or not I can prove it?

You cannot say that having a fleshly body and having an everlasting spirit is not a contradiction unless in fact, you have an everlasting spirit.

Explain to me what are these "human" rules of logic and how they are different from divine laws of logic.

How about you list the divine laws of logic and then I'll take a shot at explaining how they are different from human's. Because I don't know what the divine rules of logic are.

 

[Luke2427]

Being both infinite and finite simultaneously doesn't violate the law of non contradiction?

God did not become finite when he took on flesh.

Your premise is flawed. God became a man IN ADDITION to being God- not in contradistinction to being God.
While God he became man and while a man he was still God.


This is perfectly logical.

A tiger kills his first man. He is now a maneater. He is still as much tiger as he ever was- he simply, while remaining a tiger, IN ADDITION to being a tiger also became a man-eater.

This does not violate any law of logic.

The addition of something does not violate logic.

 

[Luke2427]

I "think" being a mathematician, that perhaps we might be confusing logic and absolute truth. Logic, appears to be an invention of man....a linguistic an symbolic exercise in semantics. Although I would agree that God is not illogical, I would hesitate to make the claim that logic is some necessary attribute of God such as the "omnis". In our human experience logic does at times lead to paradoxes a google search will reveal some of the paradoxes that can be obtained even with logical logic.

Achilles and the Tortoise
The Paradox of the heap
The Liar Paradox (which perhaps the apostle Paul addressed)
The Problem of the Specious Present

I am familiar with those paradoxes and I still think logic is of God.

God is internally consistent. That is where logic comes from.

It is what God is- internally consistent.

The reason anything means anything is because the source of EVERYTHING is God who is, always has been and must always be logical.

 

[preachinjesus]

God did not become finite when he took on flesh.

So, while incarnated in flesh...Jesus still had access to omnipresence?

 

[Luke2427]

You cannot say that having a fleshly body and having an everlasting spirit is not a contradiction unless in fact, you have an everlasting spirit.

Why can't I say it?

Why do I have to have one to say it is not a contradiction.

I say a man can have both silver and gold in his safe at the same time. I don't have to have them to say he does.

How about you list the divine laws of logic and then I'll take a shot at explaining how they are different from human's. Because I don't know what the divine rules of logic are.

No, no. You are the one who said that there are these mysterious "human laws of logic" in contradistinction from the divine laws of logic. I have never heard of these human laws. I would like to know what they are and how they differ from the divine ones.

 

[quantumfaith]

So, while incarnated in flesh...Jesus still had access to omnipresence?

PJesus, I think scripture is filled with logical conundrums....which I prefer to refer to as "tensions".

Scripture is "God breathed, yet written by fallible humans"
The tension between sin and righteousness
The tension of the hypostatic union.
.....

 

[Luke2427]

PJesus, I think scripture is filled with logical conundrums....which I prefer to refer to as "tensions".

Scripture is "God breathed, yet written by fallible humans"
The tension between sin and righteousness
The tension of the hypostatic union.
.....

Tensions do not equate violation of logic.

There is nothing about God inspiring men to write in their own style exactly what he wants to communicate that in any way violates any fundamental law of logic, for example.

What we have to e careful about doing is saying "I don't understand something therefore it is not logical."

I don't understand brain surgery but the things about it that I do know do not themselves violate logic.

 

[InTheLight]

Why can't I say it?

Why do I have to have one to say it is not a contradiction.

Might as well say anything then--My pinky fingernail is larger than my dorsal fin. There is no contradiction.

I say a man can have both silver and gold in his safe at the same time. I don't have to have them to say he does.

Then I can say I have a dorsal fin.

No, no. You are the one who said that there are these mysterious "human laws of logic" in contradistinction from the divine laws of logic. I have never heard of these human laws. I would like to know what they are and how they differ from the divine ones.

You are the one that asserted that God created logic. You are the one starting multiple threads bemoaning the idea that people are not using God's logic to formulate their theology. Go on then--list for us God's laws of logic. I am lacking education on logic, that is the problem. So educate me.

 

[Luke2427]

Might as well say anything then--My pinky fingernail is larger than my dorsal fin. There is no contradiction.



Then I can say I have a dorsal fin.




You are the one that asserted that God created logic. You are the one starting multiple threads bemoaning the idea that people are not using God's logic to formulate their theology. Go on then--list for us God's laws of logic. I am lacking education on logic, that is the problem. So educate me.

You can say you have a dorsal fin. Yes. There is nothing illogical about that statement. Weird- yes. Unnatural- probably. Illogical- no.

I have stated that the three fundamental laws of logic come from God numerous times. They exist ONLY because God is internally consistent.

Now it's your turn. What are these man-made laws you talk about?

 

[Luke2427]

So, while incarnated in flesh...Jesus still had access to omnipresence?

Certainly. WHILE walking the earth he was at the same time upholding all things by the word of his power.

 

[preachinjesus]

Uh, I'm gonna give you the night to think about that answer.