Lake of fire

[hrhema]

Since the other thread was closed I will address this now to Post It.

No, the Christadelphians do not believe anything credible. They do not believe in the Trinity.
They believe in regenerational salvation and salvation by works. They do not believe in the Devil. They believe there will be only 144,000 in the church. They also believe in Christian perfectionism.

I too agree that yes the Church does need to use the fear of Hell to scare people. Anything to prevent people from eternal damnation. Jesus told us to fear him who could give us eternal damnation. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I believe this is why Jesus of all people spoke about Hell more than anyone else since he was the creator of the place. He knew its horrors.

I know there are pastors out there who will not even mention Hell because of this idea that scaring people gives them a warped idea of God but in truth the only way fear could be a constant factor is if the pastor preached fear and nothing else. I do believe in balance.
Yet, we have thousands of Baptists in churches who absolutely have no fear of God at all for if they did they would not write some of the things they write defending terrible sins such as Homosexuality on these threads.

I have dealt with a lot of people who believe in the annihilation theory who are not believers and they have literally said to me, "Why should I give up my lifestyle because when I die God will just disintegrate me. The pain will be momentarily and so what if I don't exist anymore."

This idea is exactly what the Atheist believes.
When they die they just turn to dust and that is the end of things.

There is another group that teaches this doctrine and the following is a true story.

One of the men quit going to church and literally turned into a drunk and an adulterer. His family tried to reach him and get him to change his lifestyle but on his death bed he was begging for another beer. His family begged him to get right with God. His answer was that if they had taught him an eternal Hell he would have changed his life a long time ago but because he had been taught annihilation who cared if he died and never existed again.

The reason I am telling this true story is that a person who might come to God in fear if that person is in a church that teaches a balanced message of Love and grace and the other side of God which is judgement they learn to serve God not out of fear alone but because of his love.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by hrhema:
The reason I am telling this true story is that a person who might come to God in fear if that person is in a church that teaches a balanced message of Love and grace and the other side of God which is judgement they learn to serve God not out of fear alone but because of his love.

Likewise, I can tell you a story about a person who gave up on Christianity because of doctrines that were not based on scripture. Thus they threw out the whole belief in God. It was when I showed them that the belief they thought was not supported by scripture, could indeed be supported, that they were able to come back into the fold.

This is why the body of the church is made up of hands, feet, heads, and butts like me. You may not like my reasons for being connected to the Baptists, but I am essential, just as you are.

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by hrhema: One of the men quit going to church and literally turned into a drunk and an adulterer. His family tried to reach him and get him to change his lifestyle but on his death bed he was begging for another beer. His family begged him to get right with God. His answer was that if they had taught him an eternal Hell he would have changed his life a long time ago but because he had been taught annihilation who cared if he died and never existed again.

It seems the man may just be practicing the art of blame-shifting. Hurting his family by drunkenness and adultry really has nothing to do with whether or not he believes in annihilation and everything to do with being true in his love for his family.

A man who is true to his family will not take into account whether or not heaven exists. What husband and father will really be faithful to his family because of rewards?

The only rewards worth raising a family is having a lovely wife and gracious children who follow the Lord...and (to me) heaven, hell,or annihilation has nothing to do with it.

Just my personal opinion.

 

[BPM]

Post it you said it very well that after the cross everthing gets fuzzy for you, I am looking forward to future discussion from you because I am convinced that your false doctrine goes deeper than we have seen thus far.

Your point that your misinterpretation of scripture may strengthen a christians belief is valid for you have strengthened me.

But I believe my point is equally valid in that when the lost are exposed to your brand of teaching they are in a greater peril.

As to your demands for scriptural argument, Amen the Bible must be our standard but my friend there has been many verses aimed at your errors but in each case you shrug them off, I fear there is little hope for you.

 

[BPM]

Originally posted by post-it:

It is what happens after the non-believer is put into the lake of fire that we part ways. You say they suffer forever, the Bible and I say this is their 2nd death. This is when they "perish" for not believing as in John 3:16. This is when the wages of sin brings death.[/QB]

Now I understood that you agreed with eternal punishment but you didn't find scripture that placed all the lost there, so I gave you Rev 20:15. But now you have flip flopped and once again say that they don't suffer eternally so look up a few verses to vs 10 " shall be tormented day and night forever" As I know you will say this is only for the devil and beast and false prophet please once again refer to verse 15

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by BPM:
there has been many verses aimed at your errors but in each case you shrug them off.

I don't believe I have shrugged any off, if I have, could you give those to me again? Now that the atheists have been zapped off the board, I have more time to answer in more detail now.

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by BPM:
But I believe my point is equally valid in that when the lost are exposed to your brand of teaching they are in a greater peril.

As to your demands for scriptural argument, Amen the Bible must be our standard but my friend there has been many verses aimed at your errors but in each case you shrug them off, I fear there is little hope for you.

I agree that annihilationism is an error, yet it is not a matter of orthodoxy. Several orthodox believers believe in a temporary hell and final annihilation of the wicked, the renowned John Stott among them. Again, I say I believe Scripture is against them, yet I do not think their position is cause for "little hope for them".

 

[post-it]

Thank you Chris, with all the things happening last week, I didn't come back here to see that you had posted that last comment.

 

[Bartholomew]

Hello Post-it,

I've spent most of my time on the Bible-versions bit, so haven't come across you before. However, I've read of your posts now and I think you're wrong about most things I've seen. I've got nothing against you personally, I just think you're wrong.

But now for all those who do believe in eternal torment for the non-Christian, I just wanted to say that I think you might be arguing from the wrong places a lot of the time. What do I mean? Well:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev. 20:14)
Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne. Hence passages about people burning in hell actually don't prove torment for ever and ever and ever - because hell has an end. True - you could argue that the fires of hell continue - just they're in the Lake of Fire afterwards; but I still think it would make more sense to argue from the "Lake of Fire" passages. But then again, I get the impression that post-it doesn't believe in any suffering in "hell" either, so maybe arguments from these aren't a bad thing.

Still - sorry about the way I'm "singling you out", Post-it - it's just I think you're the only person on here who doesn't believe in it. Nice to talk to you, though

Bartholomew

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Bartholomew:
I've got nothing against you personally; I just think you're wrong.

Thanks

, I never take anything said on this board personally unless, I'm attacked personally. But disagree and support your disagreement as much as you can, that is all I ask. I'm not looking for people to tell me how stupid I am. But rather looking for answers through scripture examination and debate over interpretation. I'll be the first to say, I could be wrong on several fronts I take. I just believe everyone else could be wrong on those same fronts too. So why make it an all or nothing issues.

but I still think it would make more sense to argue from the "Lake of Fire" passages.

I agree with your direction, the hell torment is not going to fly given its end. And yes, the only thing left to derive eternal suffering is from the Lake of fire. Too bad, there are limited and even questionable verses that don't support it from that direction either.

Still - sorry about the way I'm "singling you out", Post-it - it's just I think you're the only person on here who doesn't believe in it. Nice to talk to you, though

Bartholomew[/QB]

I think there may be some "closet" annihilationist here; they just don't want to be slammed or argue the reasons for our beliefs.

By the way, we have taken this argument down the "All Other Discussions" Forum. It is going pretty strong already and would like your input on the Lake of fire and hell. The post is called "HELL".

[ May 22, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[susanpet]

Originally posted by BPM:
Are we as christians to believe that all non believers who die in their sins will eventually end up in the lake of fire?

Sad, but true.

 

[Baptist Vine]

I wanted to get my two cents in on the hell / lake of fire / eternal question.

Hell is not eternal. There is an eternal damnation, but it is the lake of fire, not hell. Revelation says that hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire.