Lamb's book of life

[savedbymercy]

ps119:

There is people that are chosen before the foundation of the world to prepare the way for Christ.

I do not know what you are talking about here, but There are People Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be Holy and blameless before Him in Love. Eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Van]

Reply to SavedbyMercy

van:



It does not matter what you think, you are in error and should repent of it.

The difference sir, is I demonstrated why I think you are in error from basic Greek grammar. And since you probably now know the tenses are from the author's point of view, there is little to commend your thinking.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those redeemed by Christ before the foundation of the world. But our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, because our election was on the basis of God crediting our faith in the truth.

 

[savedbymercy]

van:

But our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime

Thats error, see post # 16

 

[Siberian]

Still waiting for you do answer why John might have meant "before" in Revelation 13:8, but meant "from or since" in Revelation 17:8. Clearly the translation of "apo" as before is a blunder.

There is no reason to assume John had in mind "before" when he used "apo". He would have used "pro" if that was His idea. See John 17:24 for example.

I did answer this, and you just repeating yourself without any real substance does not make what you are saying true. My answer is based on grammar of the actual verse in the Greek language (two things - as it appears - that you have not examined carefully - is that because you are not able?).

The original writer had in mind a time marker (the foundation of the world) which marked the time when the perfective (this is the key) non-action was established (names not written). As I said, no serious student of the Greek can deny that this is likely the case in Rev 13.8. In English, 'before' is a very clear way of translating that idea.

 

[Van]

Reply to SavedbyMercy

Actually it is a corporate choice. The definition of corporate is:

United or combined into one body; collective: made a corporate

God chose the Body of Christ, each of its members, that compose the one body of His..

Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.

Col 1:23

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

His Body is composed of many members [Individuals] 1 Cor 12:12

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

So in Eph 1 :4, God has Chosen in the Head Christ, His Body which is inclusive of each individual member. So it was a corporate choosing from that standpoint..

We were discussing Revelation 13:8 and I provided evidence from Greek Grammar that demonstrated my view was grammatically correct, i.e. did not violate the syntax.

Now, you switch and say my error has to do with my view of corporate election and Ephesians 1:4. But since you want me to address your post to someone else, fine. Here goes!

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means of entry must be an additional stipulation, and “corporate election” by itself does not specifically address how a person “enters” or becomes a member of the corporately elected group.

Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a corporate election does not suggest that the group in view exists as individuals, the corporate election could address a "target group" that will become a group of individuals when they individually enter or become a member of the corporately elected target group.

Point 1, you are in error when you say a corporate election is comprised of individuals grouped together.

Ephesians 5:23 addresses the individuals that have entered, become members of the corporately elected group, thus Jesus is the Savior of the body, the church, made up of all those who have been spiritually placed into the body of Christ. Thus the body of Christ is composed of individual members, once the member has been placed in the body!

But Ephesians 1:4 does not address "us" individually as if we existed before creation, because obviously we did not exist before creation, so it addresses "us" as those who have been placed into the corporately elected target group. Thus God chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world. And when we are spiritually placed into the church, the body of Christ, we become part of that target group chosen corporately before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

Reply to Siberian

I did answer this, and you just repeating yourself without any real substance does not make what you are saying true. My answer is based on grammar of the actual verse in the Greek language (two things - as it appears - that you have not examined carefully - is that because you are not able?).

The original writer had in mind a time marker (the foundation of the world) which marked the time when the perfective (this is the key) non-action was established (names not written). As I said, no serious student of the Greek can deny that this is likely the case in Rev 13.8. In English, 'before' is a very clear way of translating that idea.

1) You did not answer my question. All this "time marker" stuff is fiction. It is a mistranslation. That is why the other translations translate it as from or since. Why did John not say "before" using "apo" in Revelation 17:8. Why did John us "pro" in John 17:24? No answer will be forthcoming.

2) The time marker of Revelation 13:8 is provided in the text. The time is the end time, not the beginning of time. As for your statement about "no serious student" we have the translators of the NIV, NASB, HCSB, YLT, KJV, NKJV, NET, all agreeing with my view, and you say none of these scholars are serious students. ROFLOL

 

[psalms109:31]

Group

First group.

Eph. 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Rev. 7:
3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

From that group will come

Eph. 1:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Rev. 7:
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[Isaiah 49:10]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[Isaiah 49:10]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[Isaiah 25:8]”

Those who limit God loved the world that He sent His Son or God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth will not see the true worketh from God through the elect and what He will do through them.
I believe in the elect the few the way you see it, and also those who isn't that God is including with them those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Romans 4:
Abraham Justified by Faith
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]

 

[Siberian]

1) You did not answer my question. All this "time marker" stuff is fiction. It is a mistranslation. That is why the other translations translate it as from or since. Why did John not say "before" using "apo" in Revelation 17:8. Why did John us "pro" in John 17:24? No answer will be forthcoming.

2) The time marker of Revelation 13:8 is provided in the text. The time is the end time, not the beginning of time. As for your statement about "no serious student" we have the translators of the NIV, NASB, HCSB, YLT, KJV, NKJV, NET, all agreeing with my view, and you say none of these scholars are serious students. ROFLOL

Honestly, you are making your case on things about which you have no idea... That is one thing that you have fully demonstrated here. No matter how you slice it, the original author did not have in view the point from creation to the end times. That is impossible, given the language he used.

 

[Van]

Folks note the generlized disparagement, devoid of content. Anytime a poster starts questioning my character and qualifications, the discussion is over.

The ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is a blunder, a mistranslation. The consistent wording of the proper translations clearly indicates that those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from or sincecreation are tossed into the Lake of Fire. Therefore during the same time frame, from creation to the end of the age, we can reasonably assume other names were written in the Lamb's book of life and these are those whose faith in Christ has been credited as righteousness.

 

[Siberian]

Folks note the generlized disparagement, devoid of content. Anytime a poster starts questioning my character and qualifications, the discussion is over.

The ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is a blunder, a mistranslation. The consistent wording of the proper translations clearly indicates that those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from or sincecreation are tossed into the Lake of Fire. Therefore during the same time frame, from creation to the end of the age, we can reasonably assume other names were written in the Lamb's book of life and these are those whose faith in Christ has been credited as righteousness.

Well, for the record. I said nothing about your character or qualifications. I did suggest that you haven't a clue about the Greek language, but I only said that based on the statements you continue to repeat.

 

[Van]

Right, saying I do not have a clue does not question my qualifications, and saying I should repent does not question my character.

Folks, note the effort to shift the subject away from the topic and into petty personality dispute.

The premise of the thread is that we can assume the names of those saved were entered in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world.

This was challenged by citing the ESV mistranslation and ignoring the other mainstream translations, saying all those scholars were not "serious bible students."

So the summary after at least three pages of posts remains stated in the OP, we are individually elected for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. Ephesians 1:4 addresses Christ being chosen as God's Redeemer, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately when He was chosen before the foundation of the world, thus "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...."

 

[Van]

Why does the election of Ephesians 1:4 have to be corporate and not our individual election for salvation?

1. Requires the idea of God creating individuals before He created them.

2. Individuals who are elect can have no charge brought against them, Romans 8:33. Paul says all those saved were children of wrath by nature, and so only a corporate election gets around this difficulty. We were conceived in iniquity, made sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin, etc etc. Thus charges can be brought against the so-called elect individuals of Calvinism, which is a non-runner. I think Ephesians 1:13 refers to our individual election during our lifetime when God puts us in Christ. This is therefore consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 with sanctification by the Spirit referring to the Spirit placing (baptizing) us into the body of Christ.

3. James 2:5 says God chose the poor to this world, putting individual election as occurring during a person's lifetime. Those chosen were "rich in faith" again putting the election during a person's lifetime after they trusted in God and His Christ. And those chosen were heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, so yet again, those chosen were chosen during their lifetime after they became heirs though their love of God.

4. To cut this short, see also 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where folks were chosen for salvation through ... faith in the truth. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 where folks were chosen during their lifetime. 1 Peter 2:9-10 were folks were chosen after they lived without mercy.

5. The use of the phrase "in Him" appears to convey the idea that Christ was chosen as redeemer individually, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately when Christ was chosen. Thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

6. Using this view of corporate election of "the body of Christ" or "the church" before creation, followed by God putting us in Christ, i.e into the corporately elected body, individually during our lifetime, all of scripture fits together without conflict.

 

[Siberian]

Right, saying I do not have a clue does not question my qualifications, and saying I should repent does not question my character.

Do you understand the Greek language? That is relevant, since you are arguing the meaning of Greek prepositional phrases.

Folks, note the effort to shift the subject away from the topic and into petty personality dispute.

Right, you are being martyred here. Completely unfair.

The premise of the thread is that we can assume the names of those saved were entered in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world.

This was challenged by citing the ESV mistranslation and ignoring the other mainstream translations, saying all those scholars were not "serious bible students."

I said nothing about any of the men on those translation committees. Go reread my post. I don't actually have a problem with translating it "from" or "since" (neither of those would necessarily support your odd conclusion anyway) - but I think before is a very clear translation in this context. You doubt that, but on what basis? Is it because you understand the Greek to say something else, or because of your read of the many English translations?

So the summary after at least three pages of posts remains stated in the OP, we are individually elected for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. Ephesians 1:4 addresses Christ being chosen as God's Redeemer, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately when He was chosen before the foundation of the world, thus "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...."

In summary, you are not correct - and your case is very thin. Rev 13.8 speaks to names not written for all of eternity. And Ephesians 1.4 addresses believers being chosen by God before they are even on the scene. You are simply denying a biblical claim.

 

[Van]

The ESV mistranslation provides cover for Calvinism to make arcane arguments and thus shift the subject away from when scripture says names are probably written in the Lamb's book of life.

No need to understand Greek when a lexicon written in English gives you the idea of "apo" which is out of something, hence from or since. Folks arguments that address the man, rather than the view are logical fallacies. And that is what Calvinism is all about, logical fallacies.

And note, Revelation 17:8 and John 17:24 clearly show John knew how to write either "from the foundation of the world, or before the foundation of the world, so to rewrite the text and turn from into before is without merit.

 

[jbh28]

Folks arguments that address the man, rather than the view are logical fallacies. And that is what Calvinism is all about, logical fallacies.

Anybody else see the irony in this?

 

[Siberian]

The ESV mistranslation provides cover for Calvinism to make arcane arguments and thus shift the subject away from when scripture says names are probably written in the Lamb's book of life.

One of the longstanding issues with Rev 13.8 is determining what ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου modifies. Usually, a phrase like this would modify what precedes it directly, in this case the Lamb that was Slain. One of the two major reasons why it is commonly thought to modify everyone whose name has not been written is because that makes more sense logically and theologically. We know that the Lamb was not slain from the foundation of the world, but in about 33 AD.

I am bringing this point up because it demonstrates that the phrase ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, when modifying a perfective, is commonly understood by students of the Greek New Testament to be, not the beginning of a period of time - as you suggest, but a definite point of time: the foundation of the World. In other words, if it was a time period (creation to the End of the Age) then it would make perfect sense that this phrase could modify The Lamb that was Slain, since Jesus did die during that time period. But no one has understood John to mean a time period, but a fixed point in time.

No need to understand Greek when a lexicon written in English gives you the idea of "apo" which is out of something, hence from or since.

That's rubbish. One cannot determine the meaning of phrases in a foreign language from a lexicon alone, and one certainly should not be pretending to understand what he, in fact, does not. Of course, not knowing Greek does not make your claim about the Greek incorrect. However, this is your original idea - and the idea steeped in linguistic issues. And you are standing behind it despite evidence presented to the contrary.

 

[Siberian]

Folks arguments that address the man, rather than the view are logical fallacies. And that is what Calvinism is all about, logical fallacies.

Calvinists commit logical fallacies. Therefore, Calvinism is a logical fallacy.

 

[Van]

Lets see, the NIV determined what the Greek phrase meant, but that is rubbish. The NASB determined what the Greek phrase meant, but that is rubbish. Ditto for KJV, NKJV, HCSB, YLT, and a host of others, all rubbish, but the ESV, why that got it right.

Note the effort to discredit all modern translations, except the ESV, and yet never respond to the fact the ESV translates the same phrase, from the foundation of the world at Revelation 17:8. We are asked to accept this lone poster and ignore people like Dr. D. Wallace.

Calvinism is based on defending its false doctrines with logical fallacies such as descrediting anyone who holds a differing view. Rubbish indeed.

 

[jbh28]

Straw man is another logical fallacy.