Landmarkism

[Mark Osgatharp]

Had the Baptists of the 1800s, as a whole, followed Landmarkism....

.....the soul damning Campbellite movement would not have gained a foothold among the Baptists and would doubtless have had far less influence in this country than it has had.....

.....modernism would never have gained a foothold among Baptists and you can only imagine the ramifications of that.....

....the charismatic movement would not have had near the influence on Baptists that it has and is having.

If all Baptist churches were Landmark the world would be filled with doctrinally sound, Christ exalting, Bible believing, salvation proclaiming churches, whose greatest crime would be in thinking that when Jesus Christ instituted His churches in the world He intended for them to survive.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by rsr:
So, the evidence of succession is that there is no evidence of succession?

The proof of succession is that Jesus Christ said there would be succession. You sound like Elijah when when he was unaware that God had reserved to Himself 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal or Thomas when he said he would not believe unless he could see.

Well, my friend, the day will come when God will open His history books (which by the way will be as different from man's paltry history books as light is from darkness) and you will see the train of deep water baptized saints carrying the gospel of the Son of God from the streets of Jerusalem to the ends of the world and back again, throughout all the ages from Christ till the end.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[rsr]

Dean: Smyth, though important, was a dead end; he joined the Mennonites in Holland.

Helwys dissented, and his group returned to England to found a church, which is the real origin of the Generals in England. (It also is the first recorded instance of that venerable Baptist tradition of the church split.)

Mark: Glad you could respond. Somehow, I knew you would.

 

[dean198]

rsr: Do we know for sure that all of the Generals came from Helwys? What about the sixteenth century English Baptists of Dutch anabaptist descent? I guess I need to read more on it all. Did Thomas Grantham and his churches have a lineal descent from Helwys? What about the many anabaptist doctrines and practices of the early General Baptists?

Regards
Dean

 

[dean198]

Mark: I am not a proponent of the charismatic movement, but I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit as being for today. You say that if Baptists had believed Landmarkism, there would not be charismatic inroads, yet the early Baptists were not especially cessationist as far as I can tell. Nor the Anabaptists. And this 'trail' usually includes way out groups like that Montanists who make the charismatics look tame by comparison....plus they obviously believed in the gifts, which presumably you don't.

Regards
Dean

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by dean198:
Mark: I am not a proponent of the charismatic movement, but I do believe in the gifts of the Spirit as being for today. You say that if Baptists had believed Landmarkism, there would not be charismatic inroads, yet the early Baptists were not especially cessationist as far as I can tell. Nor the Anabaptists. And this 'trail' usually includes way out groups like that Montanists who make the charismatics look tame by comparison....plus they obviously believed in the gifts, which presumably you don't.

Man, there are Baptists today who advocate everything from queer marriage to evolution to universalism. All of which, along with your statements above, prove zip about the doctrine of church succession as taught by Christ.

For the record, if you believe in any spiritual gift other than faith, hope and love, you are, by definition, a charismatic. Just think, someday the historians may look back at folks like you and say, see, the Baptists can't trace their churches through the Baptists of the 21st century because they were charismatics!

Mark Osgatharp

 

[rsr]

No, I am at present unprepared to say that all the Generals arose from the Helwys church.

And I can't see that early Baptists were anything but cessationists; those who disagreed, it seemed, wandered off into other movements, such as the Quakers.

 

[dean198]

Man, there are Baptists today who advocate everything from queer marriage to evolution to universalism. All of which, along with your statements above, prove zip about the doctrine of church succession as taught by Christ.

For the record, if you believe in any spiritual gift other than faith, hope and love, you are, by definition, a charismatic.
Mark Osgatharp

The issue of the spiritual gifts has difficulties either way. But unless I become a preterist, I can't see any other way of getting around the following texts than to believe in them for today:

1 Cor. 1:5-8:
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But my point is this - the usual Baptist trail includes groups who believed in the charismatic gifts for today....according to your definition they were charismatic. So how can believing in this trail have protected Baptists from believing in the gifts for today?

Just think, someday the historians may look back at folks like you and say, see, the Baptists can't trace their churches through the Baptists of the 21st century because they were charismatics!

So Baptists who believe in the gifts are not truly Baptist, but Charismatic? The early General Baptists believed in divine healing, and even some of the Particulars rejected Cessationism. Just think, some people like you can look back at charismatic-baptist groups like the anabaptists, novationists, waldenses, and the montanists, and excuse in them what they condemn in their contemporaries!!! Just a thought!
Regards
Dean

 

[Southern]

Rufus said:
Landmarkism affirms that the true church of Jesus has existed since its origin by Jesus.

It does not affirm that any local church may trace herself back to Jesus

Me: So, you do not believe in the chain link theory that you have to get your authority from a pre-existing authority (Mother church)? Or are you saying that it is impossible or uneccesary to show your lineage back to Christ?

 

[Landmarker]

Dean198,

I would say that Landmarkers are generally Moderate Calvinists and as a result believe that God calls all to be saved but that man has free will in the decision. They do recognize that God has foreknowledge and knows men's hearts even before they are born and in that sense they are predestined as the elect.

Many Landmarkers believe in dispensationalism as taught by LD Foreman in "The Bible in Eight Ages."

 

[robycop3]

Some Landmark beliefs stray from both Scripture and from long-held baptist beliefs. One such belief is that only a Landmarker can perform a valid baptism. I should like to see THAT one supported by Scripture. Same thing with their EXCLUSIVITY, that only Landmarkers will enter heaven.

Many of their ideas came from the preaching of J.R.Graves in the 1840-1850s, & from J.M.Carroll's large pamphlet, The Trail of Blood. However, a careful study of Baptist history refutes many of their doctrines.

 

[TaterTot]

We have many landmark churches in our area, and you would be apalled at some of the damage that they have done.

 

[rsr]

Again, this discussion is about the history of Landmarkism and should be confined to that.