Featured Lapsarianism

My holiness is totally in Christ. There is certainly no holiness in my old sinful body.

 

Then why did you start a thread on the subject if it is a waste to you?

 

You are able to hold to that verse no matter what your pick would be. I've never heard anyone, no matter how strict a Calvinist say that someone who came to Christ would be cast out. I have heard that used as a straw man argument against Calvinism in general, usually by someone who is unable to make any other argument.

 

A WHALE of an OP, only to have the thread Harpooned to death before our very eyes.

Whew.

Romans 9

Romans-9.pdf A Calvinist's Perspective.

 

Right to the main point, well said.

 

Why even go through the exercise? If I had to label myself it would be a radical Christian, a Monergist & an original Baptist.
Thankfully , through experience, God has steered me away from false religion, I.E. Catholicism, Calvinism, Legalism. I especially dislike modern religion… it is an affront to Christ and the Trinity.

 

How did you come to give up Calvinism as a false religion, just out of curiosity?

 

I like how Joseph Irons puts it in hymn he wrote in Zion's Hymns. (in common meter)

Job 17:9 The righteous also shall hold on his way, and he that hath clean hands shall be stronger and stronger.

"Perseverance"

1. Ye heav'n-born souls, who stand complete,
In Christ your righteousness:
Your Father's hand shall guide your feet
To everlasting bliss.

2. Weakness itself is found in you,
And darkness when you pray;
But fear not, Christian, God is true,
You shall hold on your way.

3. Let earth molest, and Satan rage,
And troubles crowd each day;
Fear not, your Father does engage,
You shall hold on your way.

4. The oath of God, and cov'nant love,
And Jesus' blood, all say,
You shall His Spirit's influence prove,
And still hold on your way.

5. Till sin is slain, and death o'ercome,
Till everlasting day;
Till you arrive in heaven your home,
You shall hold on your way.

 

3 Presbyterian ministers told me that my infant son who died was in hell and his mother and I put him there.

 

Ah...that made me cry out to The Lord. Thanks. Sorry about that. Those 'ministers' might need to learn of "the ways of God more perfectly"! Sorry about them, again.

 

New thread: Mercy cannot be demanded. "Sue for Mercy." Get Assurance.

 

By their standards, we were both reprobates living outside the church and so
Without baptizing him we were heinous sinners bound for hell… and he, being a product of our sinning, a child of reprobates was doomed to hell… and we put him there.

Now if he were a child of their Calvinist denomination he would be a member of the clan and saved. If my girlfriend and I at the time repented, got married in their church and renounced Satan we could be saved… however our child was doomed to hell.

Now I ask you, why would either one of us want to be a member of that mess of a church?

 

Can you tell me why so many of todays Calvinist churches are generally fine with their soteriology with an emphasis on Doctrines of Grace but turn absolutely Pelagian when it comes to salvation by Grace. I even have a name for them, “calminians”

 

It seems no matter how many times this question is answered, the answer is ignored and the question re-asked.

Lets start once again with Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. ​

Our first question is did God choose us as individuals before creation, or did He choose us corporately as the target group of His redemption plan? Since the Lamb of God was known before creation, God had formulated His Redemption plan, and had chosen His Redeemer, His Lamb of God, before creation. And certainly then, God had anticipated humanity's fall before creation because He formulated a redemption plan for that Fall.

So by the numbers:
1) God formulated His Redemption plan, anticipating the Fall.
2) God chose Logos to be His Redeemer, His Lamb of God
3) In choosing His Redeemer, God chose corporately those His Redeemer would redeem.

All of the above occurred in the order given before creation.

During the creation week:
1) God created humans, male and female.
2) The first people were placed in the garden of Eden, along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

After or since the creation week:
1) God allowed Adam to volitionally sin, knowingly violating God's will.
2) God imposed the consequences of Adam's sin upon Adam, Eve, and their descendants - all humanity. The Fall

Between the time of the Fall and Christ's death, but still in the time frame since creation:

1) Old Testament saints gained approval through their faith in God and His promises. This election was individual based on God crediting their faith, such as Abraham's faith, as righteousness. This action did not make those chosen righteous, but set them apart to be made perfect after Christ died. Upon physical death, these OT saints were taken to "Abraham's bosom."

After Christ's substitutionary sacrifice on the cross, but still in the time frame since creation:

1) New Covenant saints, starting with the thief on the day Christ physically died, are taken directly to the Third Heaven, the abode of God.

2) During the interval between Christ's death on Friday and His bodily resurrection on Sunday, Christ took all the OT Saints out of "Abraham's bosom" to the Third Heaven.

3) Now, when God chooses an individual for salvation, God transfers them spiritually into Christ's spiritual body.

4) When Christ returns to earth at His second coming all those chosen according to God's redemption plan, will be raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye, and join Christ in the air, our ultimate sanctification.

 

That says it all.

(Not trying to cause any more of a ruckus, but) I don't see any of what they proposed as a Calvinistic position.

Smells, somewhat, of, "living outside the church", as being part of their idea of salvation(?)

"Without baptizing him", for salvation?

By not doing some work, OF BEING BAPTIZED, ETC. "we were heinous sinners bound for hell."

"and he, being a product of our sinning", as David and Bathsheba's child, Solomon?

God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy.

Jesus is the Savior.

It is not in the power of individuals to "put him there", as you know, regardless of where they 'went', which we DO NOT KNOW.

"if he were a child of their Calvinist denomination he would be a member of the clan and saved", but "church membership as a prerequisite to salvation", is not a Calvinist position.

"got married in their church"? One more bunch of Legalists.

Jesus Christ, as the Savior, may want to be consulted, for Salvation!

There are unknown things, not revealed by God, that I have no clue about.
David said as you know, "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." II Samuel 12:23.

They would make it hard to "Praise God", with all their heartless errors and Godless lies.

It would be difficult enough to "Praise the Almighty God of all Creation", after and in spite of the loss of a child.

I, personally, have not been called to experience the death of a child and attempt to Praise God, Who is the Lord Who Gives and the Lord Who Takes away.

But, I have found that Praising God, as the Controller of all things is key in such circumstances.

Like my wife of 35 years going away, slowly, with Alzheimer's.

The Question is: Am I still willing to Praise a God, which permits such things?

That would be a much preferred 'religion' over that of those 'ministers' if I did.

We know others (John the Baptist) were Saved from their mother's womb.

He leaped at the announcement of Jesus' Life in the womb of Mary, which is the activity of a Saved soul, only.

Also, if God can Quicken my Spiritually dead soul, from my blindness, He can MAKE an UNBORN CHILD HEAR the GOSPEL and BE BORN AGAIN and Save that unborn child! One Way. By that child being given the ability to HEAR the Gospel. God can do it, again. He's done it before, which is:

 

"the theological doctrine of Pelagius and his followers, in particular the denial of the doctrines of original sin and predestination, and the defense of innate human goodness and free will."

pelagianism definition - Google Search

Salvation IS by Grace "that not of yourselves, it is the Gift of God.

Calvinists make an appeal to the lost to "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", etc., which is all the lost sinner's RESPONSIBILITY but tempered with their understanding of original sin and predestination.

In other words, they are going to Command the sinner to Repent and Believe THE GOSPEL, without losing the fact that SIN must be acknowledged and the REASON the lost soul NEEDS a Savior! (if done appropriately), as is testified by all the preachers, mostly, of the past.

from: "Duty Faith" by A.W. Pink

"It is the bounden duty of all who hear the Gospel to savingly trust in Christ, otherwise their rejection of Him would be no sin.

"Many of our readers will be surprised to hear that this self-evident truth is denied by some who are, otherwise, sound in the Faith.

"They reason that it is “inconsistent” to call upon the spiritually dead to perform spiritual duties."

That is where things are at. It is not “inconsistent” to call upon the spiritually dead to perform spiritual duties", like "believe", "repent", "choose", decide", etc., knowing, Prayerfully, if they do, "believe", "repent", "choose", decide", etc., it is the EVIDENCE of God's Holy Spirit having Dealt with that soul OVER THEIR SIN GUILT of THEIR SIN NAILING JESUS to the CROSS.

No. If they do give Decisionism and/ or Easy Believism invitations, or Pelagian 'alter calls', (without the prospects of CONVICTION, REPENTANCE, and FAITH/ BELIEF and REGENERATION, by The New Birth), it is not balanced with what Calvin said,

“The mercy of God is offered equally to those who believe and to those who believe not, so that those who are not Divinely taught within are rendered inexcusable” (John Calvin—1552—The Eternal Predestination of God p. 95).

“A slight acquaintance with Paul will enable anyone to understand, without tedious argument, how easily he reconciled things which they pretend to be repugnant to each other.

Christ commands men to believe in Him, yet His limitation is neither false nor contrary to His command when He says ‘No man can come to Me except it were given him of My Father.’

Let preaching, therefore, have its force to bring men to faith” (Calvin’s Institutes Book 3, chap. 18, par. 13).

from: "Duty Faith" by A.W. Pink

At that link, Pink gives many examples of how God's men have done it right.

“The first part then of Christianity is the preaching of repentance and the knowledge of ourselves... A man, therefore, is made a Christian not by working but by hearing; wherefore, he that will exercise himself to righteousness must first exercise himself in hearing the Gospel. Now, when he hath heard and received the Gospel, let him give himself to God with a joyful heart, and afterward let him exercise himself in those good works which are commanded in the law” (Martin Luther—1540—on Galatians, pp. 104 and 185).

“When we meet with a precept, we should simply endeavor to obey it, without enquiring into God’s hidden purpose.... Notwithstanding God’s predestination is most certain and unalterable, so that no elect person can perish, nor any reprobate be saved, yet it does not follow from thence that all reproofs and exhortations on the part of God, or prayers on the part of men, are useless” (J. Zanchius—1562—The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination, pp. 49 and 120).

“With the promises, there is joined an exhortation or command to believe, which is more general than the promise; because the promise is only made to believers; but the commandment is given to believers and unbelievers also. For the elect are mingled with the wicked in the same assemblies, and therefore the ministers of the Gospel ought indiscriminately to exhort all and everyone to repent.” “In very truth, if thou goest forth of this world being no repentant sinner, thou goest damned to Hell: wherefore delay not one minute of an hour longer, but with all speed repent and turn unto God” (W. Perkins—1595—Vol. 1, p. 379; Vol. 2, p. 692).

“Let us be stirred up to repent immediately. Doth not God now warn you? Is it not dangerous living one hour in a state that we would not die in? May God justly strike us on the sudden? Do but purpose to live in sin one-quarter of an hour; may we not be taken away in that quarter?” (R. Sibbes—1620—Vol. 6, p. 212).

“We are expressly commanded to believe, and that upon the highest promises, and under the greatest penalties. This command is that which makes believing formally a duty. Faith is a grace as it is freely wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, the root of all obedience and duties, as it is radically fixed in the heart. But as it is commanded it is a duty; and these commands, you know, are several ways expressed, by invitations, exhortations, propositions” (John Owen—1650—Vol. 14, p. 223).

“I say there is no simulation at all of God in this: that which He proposeth is but this; ‘Whosoever believeth shall be saved, and whosoever believeth not shall be damned.’ He sends His ministers to preach this, and to beseech them to believe, and to be reconciled unto God, yea, all they meet with.” “He commands them to preach promiscuously unto all, persuade all, exhort all, unto faith and repentance” (W. Twisse—1653—The Riches of God’s Love pp. 73 and 169).

“My counsel (to his unsaved hearers) is this: Stir up your souls to lay hold on the Lord Jesus and look up to Him, wait on Him from whom every good and perfect gift comes, and give Him no rest till He hath given thee that jewel faith” (Thomas Brooks—1653—Vol. 1, p. 144).

“This condition of faith and repentance is suited to the consciences of men. The law of nature teaches us that we are bound to believe every revelation from God when it is made known to us; and not only to assent to it as true, but embrace it as good.” “Our rejection of Christ, and the way of His appointing, is a high contempt of God.... It is a ‘making light’ of a rich feast of God’s providing” (S. Charnock—1660—Vol. 3, pp. 68 and 469).


see the Decisionism and/ or Easy Believism invitations, or Pelagian 'alter calls', concern in:
"Decisional Regeneration" - James E. Adams


WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO?

PREACH CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.

 

There is a group on this site which have problems with the very idea of "beseech them to believe, and to be reconciled to God". You are not supposed to persuade and exhort unto faith and repentance because that would be asking people to use their will.

 

Right. That is the very thing Pink was coming out against, with those folks saying they believed:

"We deny duty-faith and duty-repentance—these terms signifying that it is every man’s duty to spiritually and savingly repent and believe (Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Matt. 15:19; Jer. 17:9; John 6:44, 65).

"We deny also that there is any capability in man by nature to any spiritual good whatever. So that we reject the doctrine that men in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God (John 12:29, 40; Eph. 2:8; Rom. 8:7, 8; 1 Cor. 4:7).

"Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Spirit, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption"

I sympathize with what they are TRYING to do and that is, they say, not wanting to, "imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption".

Well, NEWS FLASH! It is not up to them or in their control to "go to seed", on the matter of Human Responsibility vs God's Sovereignty.

Both are true and God says, "Preach the Gospel", which includes the exhortations in scripture, to "believe", "repent", etc., and no harm is done to the Doctrines of the creature having no power, or the doctrine of special redemption.

Pink said,

"As some of our readers have imbibed (note: gotten drunk on it) this error, we are anxious to be of help to them.

"We have therefore decided to follow the article by John Newton on “Ministerial Address to the Unconverted” in the March issue by first giving brief quotations from the writings of the Reformers and Puritans, to show how the framers of those [Gospel Standard] Articles of Faith departed from the path and policy followed by so many eminent saints of God who preceded them."

Then, he does that in the rest of the article: "Duty Faith" by A.W. Pink

From this morning, at:
Romans-9.pdf

in Romans 9:14-18
Here Paul begins by raising another counter-argument, this time regarding the injustice of God that could be perceived on account of his election (v. 14).

Paul counters this argument of injustice by pointing to the absolute freedom of God to have mercy on whom he desires (v. 15).

In this we see the usage of the terms “mercy” and “compassion” which are verbs of God’s action of choosing whom he will act upon.

“Whom” here is singular indicating that there are individuals in mind who will be literally “mercied” or “compassioned.”

Verse 16 re-stresses God’s absolute sovereignty and unconditional election of individuals, “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”

Why is God’s election fair?

(Note: Notice

"Because he is absolutely free in all of his actions to do as he pleases according to his purposes and neither man’s will (repentance and faith are an act of will) or exertion plays a role."

*Note Clarification: in man’s NATURAL, SPIRITUALLY DEAD will
NATURAL, SPIRITUALLY DEAD "repentance" and NATURAL, SPIRITUALLY DEAD "faith" are an act of man’s NATURAL, SPIRITUALLY DEAD will.

When the Holy Spirit Grants in man’s SPIRITUALLY REBORN/ REGENERATED will SUPERNATURAL SPIRITUALLY REBORN/ REGENERATED "repentance" and SUPERNATURAL SPIRITUALLY REBORN/ REGENERATED "faith" which are EVIDENCE of THE ACTIVITY of GOD and an act of man’s NEW SUPERNATURAL SPIRITUALLY REBORN/ REGENERATED will.

There has to be a balance.

con't

 

from: http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

"The question is, then, how can man be responsible for his actions when all that he does has been ordained and decreed of God?

This is not a new question. It is at least as old as the New Testament, and probably much older. Paul anticipated this question from his readers when he penned the wonderful ninth chapter of Romans.

He said. "Thou will say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will."

And Paul's reply was: "Nay, but, 0 man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor."

Paul's mentioning of this question and his reply show conclusively that Paul taught the absolute sovereignty of God.

Indeed his preceding words clearly teach it.

Paul made the reply that he did because he anticipated the question as coming from an objector.

When it comes to a reverent inquiry, it deserves more detailed consideration.

Paul's reply had to be brief because his time and purpose would not permit a lengthy discussion.

Our time permits and our purpose demands a fuller discussion.

Man is responsible for his actions, notwithstanding the fact that God has decreed all that comes to pass, for at least three reasons:

1. God's Decree Concerning Sin is Not Causative but Permissive, Directive, Preventive, and Determinative.

God decreed that sin should come in the world, for reasons that are fully known only to Him, but He decreed that it should come by man's own free choice.

God does not compel man to sin, but He allows it.

Man, and not God, is the efficient cause of sin; and for that reason man is responsible.

Before passing it needs to be remarked that no objections can be brought against the statement that God decreed that sin should come into the world that cannot be brought against God's actual permission of sin, unless the objector takes the position that God was powerless to prevent the entrance of sin.

This would be a denial of God's omnipotence and sovereignty, and would render the objector unworthy of consideration here.

God's omnipotence and sovereignty teach us that whatever God permits He permits because He wills to do so.

And since God is immutable, His will has ever been the same.

What He wills at any time He has willed from all eternity.

Therefore, His will equals His purpose and His purpose equals His decree.

2. The Law of God and Not His Decree Fixes Man's Duty and Responsibility.

The law of God is man's guide and standard. This is God's revealed will. God's decree is His secret will.

Man has nothing to do with this except to know and acknowledge the facts concerning it. "The secret things belong unto Jehovah, our God; but things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29).

3. The Motive Back of Man's Sinning Makes Him Responsible.

Why does man sin? Is it ever because he wants to do the will of God?

Nay, never so. Why did men crucify Christ? Was it because they believed that God had sent Him to die as a sin-bearer? No. It was because they hated Him. They crucified Him through wicked motives. It is thus that man always sins. Sin proceeds from man's love of darkness (John 3:19).

II. HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY AND MAN'S SPIRITUAL INABILITY

Another question concerning man's responsibility is, How can man be responsible for not fully obeying the law of God and for not receiving the gospel when it is heard when he is unable by nature to do either of these?

For proof of man's spiritual inability, see chapters on Sin and Conversion.

The answer to this question is that man can be responsible for what he is unable to do only on the supposition that he is to blame for his inability.

And it is a fact that man is to blame for his spiritual inability.

It is not that he individually, by his own personal act, originated the inability, for he was born with it.

But every man sinned in Adam, and thus originated his spiritual inability. That every man sinned in Adam is the true teaching of Rom. 5:12- "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that ALL SINNED."

"Sinned" in the Greek is aorist tense, which expresses pointed past action. The passage makes it refer to the participation of all men in the sin of Adam. But how did we participate in the sin of Adam when we were not born when he sinned? We think we cannot do better than give the following words of A. H. Strong in reply:

"God imputes the sin of Adam immediately to all his posterity, in virtue of that organic unity of mankind by which the whole race at the time of Adam's transgression existed, not individually, but seminally, in him as its head.

The total life of humanity was then in Adam; the race as yet had its being only in him. Its essence was not yet individualized; its forces were not yet distributed; the powers which now exist in separate men were then unified and localized in Adam; Adam's will was yet the will of the species.

In Adam's free act, the will of the race revolted from God and the nature of the race corrupted itself.

The nature which we now possess is the same nature that corrupted itself in Adam- not the same in kind merely, but the same as flowing to us continuously from him.

Adam's sin is imputed to us immediately, therefore, not as something foreign to us, but because it is ours-- we and all other men having existed as one moral person, or one moral whole, in him, and as the result of that transgression, possessing a nature destitute of love to God and prone to evil" (Systematic Theology, p. 328)."


see: http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books II/Simmons - A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine.pdf

Chapter 14 The Essential Elements of Human Nature
Chapter 15 The Moral Nature of Man
Chapter 16 The Original State and Fall of Man
Chapter 17 The Doctrine of Sin
Chapter 18 Human Responsibility
Chapter 19 The Free Agency of Man
Chapter 20 The Doctrine of Election
Chapter 21 The Doctrine of The Atonement
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls
Chapter 23 The New Birth
Chapter 24 The Doctrine of Conversion
Chapter 25 Repentance and Faith