Larry King show - Priest?

Quite frankly, at least as I understand it -- neither.

During the Paschal season until Pentecost, we will sing the Troparion of the Resurrection:

"Christ is risen from the dead. By death He conquered death, and to those in the graves, He granted life."

Our emphasis in the Eastern Orthodox Church is on the resurrection of Christ, for it is through the resurrection that He accomplished all for mankind. The emphasis of the West is more juridical, and while there is that element in the Scriptures, we do not emphasize it, thus the difference between Eastern and Western thinking regarding salvation.

Salvation is union with Christ in the resurrection life. We are called to enter that union by the call to baptism, in which we are united with Christ. (Rom. 6:3). Union with Christ is life. Existence outside of Christ is death. It is really that simple. The good news of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is the good news that we may be united to Him BECAUSE He now lives forever and gives life to all who enter into union with Him through baptism.

The earthly figure of this is marriage. The Church is called the Bride of Christ. As our Mother, She nurtures us on earth, teaching and instructing us in righteousness as any good mother does for her children.

The Church does not "dictate policy" as you so wrongly put it. She is the keeper and promoter of all truth which was given to the apostles and handed down from generation to generation. These are the words and promises of Christ Himself. (Matt. 16: 18, John 16:13). All who desire to know the truth regarding God should listen to Her.

It was the Church which defended the truth of Christ's deity against the Arian heretics. She defined the natures of Christ and how those natures exist in the person of Jesus the Christ. It was the Church which defined the truth in the midst of the Iconoclastic destruction of churches. It has been in the Church that all truth has been defined. Those who do not accept what She teaches have a problem, for Jesus said that He would keep the Church from being overrun by the gates of hell and would lead Her into all truth.

Whether it be a Muslim who cannot accept the deity of the Son of God, or a Protestant who cannot accept the fact of the Real Presence of Christ in every Host on every altar of every Catholic Church in the world, the basic problem is the same: they do not accept that which the Church teaches because it offends their sensibilities or intellect.

Well, that's too bad, but the Church will not change the truth to make it more palatable to those who cannot believe.

Whosoever joins the Church joins Christ, for the Church is called "The Body of Christ," and as I have said, union with Christ is life.

Read Romans 2 and note that the basis of judgment which our Lord will use on the Judgment Day is precisely the "good deeds" that you so despize as being unnecessary. Good works are the way in which we keep the terms of the covenant of salvation into which we have entered.

Covenant keepers receive blessings. Covenant breakers receive cursings. (Deut. 28). That is a Biblical principle of God's dealings with mankind. Everything is done on covenantal principles.

BTW -- I belong to the "CATHOLIC" Faith, but am not a member of the Roman rite of observance of that Faith. I am Eastern Orthodox in union with Rome.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Brother Ed,

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/aposfath.htm

 

Let me take a stab at parcing exactly what St. Augustine is saying here:

Perhaps St. Augustine answers his own question if we could read further then what is quoted here, but taking it in the narrow context of how I read it, the opposite question is, was Abel still condemned to hell?

Because even though he was "righteous" as we read in Genesis, was not the gates of heaven closed by the sin of Adam?

But if Abel was "righteous" before God, he then certainly did not go to hell. But where did he go if heaven's gate is closed?

(Read the parable of the rich man and the poor man, and consider the "Bosom of Abraham" for a moment.)

Again, I am not sure St. Augustine answers this question either, but is rather a rethorical question posed to make us think. So far, I see nothing of a position either way by St. Augustine.

But is St. Augustine making this statement that "Christ died in vain" if one could be saved without believing in Christ as a conclusion on his part, or on the part of those he is speaking of here?

I think that first sentence is key here. It is the grace of Christ, especially in that he died on the cross for ALL of mankind, that perhaps makes it possible for the "pagan man" to be saved simply because of the righteous life he has led (liken to Abel) even while he has never heard of the gospel of Christ.

Too little St. Augustine is quoted here to really get a grasp of what he is teaching here, (and I have not researched further from whence this quote came) but I get the feeling that St. Augustine is tending to the same doctrine as taught by Holy Church - That such men can indeed be saved by their righteous life and a belief in
God that for all intents and purposes, has him conform to the commandments of Christ even while he has never heard of the man!

The blood of Christ applies to him as well!

Now, there is an opposite side to this argument: Why evangelize at all if all men can be saved without hearing the gospel of Christ and coming to believe in him? If all then need to do is be "righteous" in the sight of God (and His Son, Jesus christ)why evangelize?

The answer should be obvious: To be righteous before God is an extremely difficult thing to do! Even nearly impossible, I think - the revages of original sin and the concupence that accompanies it - makes such a proposition almost unlikely, if perhaps not nearly impossible. We simply don't know the extent of the condemnation of man by their own sins even while the natural law is operative that has some latent graces in all men that may attempt to induce all men to righteousness.

If Able was righteous before God, and likewise Abraham and all of the saints of the Old Testament, can we say that absolutely no man can be saved without the evangelization of the gospel? Where did Christ go immediately after He died on the cross? (The "Bosom of Abraham" again.....)

Matthew 28:19 compels the early church to "make disciples of all nations...," thus the thrust is to bring the graces from the gospel that men may come to him in the preaching of the gospel! In other words, the odds of "being saved" are so much greater with the preaching of the gospel of Christ! Come Holy Spirit!

I Hope I said all of this without confusion. I simply put the words on page as they occurred to me................

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

Brian --

The reason to TELL everyone is because Jesus Christ is LORD over all, and all are to be brought into subjection to His Lordship. The Church, according to Scripture, has been given the job of RECONCILLIATION of the world to the Lordship of Christ.

The Church is the kingdom of God on earth, and as such, all nations and peoples are to be brought to subjection to Christ through obedience to the Church.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Bill,

Thanks for the response. I can't read it close enough for now. However, I just wondered if you noticed I gave the direct link to the writing by Augustine the quote was extracted from. So, you can easily read it in full context, if you haven't already.

God Bless!!!

Lisa

 

Hi Lisa!

Lent is over and here I am "brighted-eyed and bushy tailed," as we used to say in the Naval Service! Had a wonderful Holy Week, especially the Triduum of Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday (the vigil of Easter).

Hope you did not eat too many Easter eggs!

Yes, I saw the link after I posted my reply to you, and I may go there. But being that I want to go slowly, I will let you do the reading and have you tell me where I may have gone wrong!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

(Catholic Convert)
"The Church is the kingdom of God on earth, and as such, all nations
and peoples are to be brought to subjection to Christ through
obedience to the Church."


"Whosoever joins the Church joins Christ, for the Church is called
"The Body of Christ," and as I have said, union with Christ is life."

(Singer)

That would mean without the Church, Christ cannot save.
Otherwise, the "Church" has bound Jesus, or at least Jesus
has turned His power over to the "Church".
Explicit Catholic writings that are unfounded in the bible.
"Church" as appears in the bible does not refer to the Catholic Church.
The "Body of Christ" is not the Catholic Church.

Christ said "Whosoever believes in me shall never die"
Catholic Church says "Whosoever joins the Church joins Christ"

I'll take my chances with Christ's claims...Thank you !

 

That would mean without the Church, Christ cannot save.

Or, it means that salvation entails being joined to God's family. We're saved "for" the family, and we're saved "from" exclusion from that family.

Otherwise, the "Church" has bound Jesus, or at least Jesus has turned His power over to the "Church".

Or, Jesus has given authority to his Church and guides this authority from heaven. He tells Peter, "What you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven." The tail of the Church Militant doesn't wag the dog of the Church Triumphant. Christ the head is the active principle in the Church through his Spirit.

"Church" as appears in the bible does not refer to the Catholic Church.

"Ecclesia" in the NT refers to that visible body of Christians extant at that time, and JND Kelly, a prominent Anglican Christian historian, has noted:

"As regards ‘Catholic’ ... in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations ... What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines 190–1)

 

Or, it means that salvation entails being joined to God's family. We're
saved "for" the family, and we're saved "from" exclusion from that family.

But no mention of that approach is to be found in the bible.

Or, Jesus has given authority to his Church and guides this authority
from heaven. He tells Peter, "What you bind on earth will have been
bound in heaven." The tail of the Church Militant doesn't wag the dog
of the Church Triumphant. Christ the head is the active principle in the
Church through his Spirit

Christ is the head of individual faith and does not set up His Kingdom in
earthly tabernacles. Praise be to Him, the author of our faith which is
available to "Whoever believes in Me."

Romans 10:13...."For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall
be saved"

Proverbs 3:5 " Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
thine own understanding."

(Nor the understanding of the Catholic Church?)

 

But no mention of that approach is to be found in the bible.

Singer, you're just kidding with me, right?

What is Paul speaking of when he writes: "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph 2:19)?

Christ is the head of individual faith and does not set up His Kingdom in earthly tabernacles.

How would you make sense of Jesus when he says, "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers" (Mt 13:41)?

 

Singer, you're just kidding with me, right?

Well, you started it....

Members of the household of God?........
That would be like the household of Faith.

And.....what is faith to be centered on...?
The bible quotes "Faith in God", "Faith in Jesus Christ" etc.

Galatians 3:26
" For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Please show me a verse that supports "Faith in the Church"
or to be exact ..."Faith in the Catholic Church".

 

Singer, let's review our dialogue:
_

Carson: "Or, it means that salvation entails being joined to God's family. We're
saved for the family, and we're saved from exclusion from that family.

Singer: But no mention of that approach is to be found in the bible.

Carson: Singer, you're just kidding with me, right? What is Paul speaking of when he writes: "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph 2:19)?
_

I've shown you how Paul speaks of our salvation in familial terms: we are saved from exclusion from God's family for inclusion in God's family.

We don't have faith "in" the Catholic Church strictly put. Henri Cardinal de Lubac states this well in his The Splendour of the Church. Our faith is "in" the Triune God as fides qua, and because we believe in him, we accept - as objects of faith - all that he has revealed as the fides quae. Therefore, we believe in the Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, and all the rest.

The Church is an integral part of the Gospel. It is precisely the household of faith, the family of God, the People of God, the kingdom of God, the Mystical Body of Christ, the heavenly Jerusalem, etc.

The question isn't whether the Church is - the question is what is the Church. The Church is essentially heavenly, and the pilgrim Church on earth is visibly present as the kingdom Christ inaugurated in his first coming.

This brings us to my question: How would you make sense of Jesus when he says, "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers" (Mt 13:41)?

 

This brings us to my question: How would you make sense of Jesus
when he says, "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather
out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers" (Mt 13:41)?


With this, we'll have to establish what the "Kingdom" is first.....and you
have already entered the Catholic position that the "Kingdom of God" is
the Catholic church in another thread.

I would NOT make sense of Jesus' position on the basis of the kingdom
being the Catholic Church and of course Jesus was not referring to that
himself......as the Catholic Church was still over a century away from its
birth.

First, you'd have to discount the universal church (catholic..small c), destroy
it and all the references Jesus made to that ''church'' and then justify
in replacing it with the latter formed Catholic (capital C) Church.

That practice later became coined as Mutiny.

No, I'm not kidding. Are you .....?

 

Hi Lisa,

Quick question for you, since you've been digging through CCEL.

The translations of the "Early Church Fathers" on CCEL are taken verbatim from a 38-volume set published (I think) between about the 1860's and the 1890's. My impression from looking at the texts is that the little chapter headings (such as "Chapter 10 [IX.]-He Could Not Be Justified, Who Had Not Heard of the Name of Christ; Rendering the Cross of Christ of None Effect.") were inserted by the translators, and are not part of the original works.

Do you think I'm right? (Do you know of anywhere on CCEL where it indicates one way or the other?)

Thanks,

Mark

 

Mark,

I'm not sure how the divisions and headings came into play. But, I checked the New Advent site and it contained the same sub-headings. Here's the same heading:

CHAP. 10 [IX.]--HE COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED, WHO HAD NOT HEARD OF THE NAME OF CHRIST; RENDERING THE CROSS OF CHRIST OF NONE EFFECT.

Here's the link:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm

 

Lisa,

That makes sense, because New Advent is drawing from the same set of translations. I wonder if we could find a site that has a different translation?

(I think the reason that particular translation is on the Internet in several places is because its copyright protection has expired).

Thanks,

Mark

 

Mark,

Oh. Okay, I'll keep looking and get back to you.

Lisa

 

Mark,

I found this statement on the Corunum Catholic Apologetic Website:

(1) Are all the writings of the Church Fathers available on the internet?

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/faq.htm

 

This one's for Bro. Ed, from the Corunum Catholic Apologetic Website:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/faq.htm

 

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for looking! I agree with what you've found, but it doesn't help me in sorting out what's "definitely Augustine's (translated) words" from what's "added by the translators to Augustine's (translated) words."

If I get a chance, maybe I can check at the library over the weekend for a different translation of Augustine.

{I tend to think that the Chapter 10 heading, in particular, doesn't reflect the content of the passage that follows very accurately, which is why I'm curious about it).

Anyhow, let me know if you run across anything else helpful!

Mark