Larry King show - Priest?

Mark,

I often find that the headings are misleading. Anyhow, I'll keep looking for information.

Lisa

 

Mark,

I found this website, just not sure how it works. Maybe you can figure it out:

http://www.stthomas.edu/libraries/ireland/guides/history/church_fathers.pdf

 

Here's another site. I can't seem to figure out if it's a different translation or based upon the same one. Anyhow, the headings are the same. Here's the link:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/History/AD/EarlyChurchFathers/Nicene/Anti-PelagianWritings/view.cgi?file=npnf1-05-16.htm&size=20

 

Lisa,

The second one looks like the same translation. I can't figure out that first one, either!

Mark

 

Lisa dear --

You still don't seem to get what I am saying:

Augustine's writings are indeed revered and voluminous, but they are not on a par with the OFFICIAL DOCTRINAL STATEMENTS OF A COUNCIL.

Therefore, I have every right to disagree with them. For instance, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, we consider St. Augustine's protocalvinistic views of salvation to be heretical. And we have that right.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Ed,

Dear, I know exactly what you mean. However, you misinterpret my stance. I simply posted what Augustine had to say on the issue. I did not say that I agreed or disagreed. If you are not Roman Catholic and you don't adhere to the beliefs of the RCC, why are we having this discussion? I do not believe that Augustine, the Pope, or the RCC was/is infallible. Do you consider your church to be infallible and superior to the RCC?
Anyhow, I realize that the Church fathers are not considered individually infallible by the RCC, however, do you consider the Council of Trent to be an infallible synod? Because, this council and the RCC state that no teaching or interpretation of Scripture can be contrary to Unanimous Consent of the Church Fathers.Can you show evidence of the RCC condemning or disavowing any of Augustine's teachings?


Council of Trent
Session IV, April 8, 1546, Decree Concerning the Edition and the Use of the Sacred Books:

... "Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, it [the Council of Trent] decrees that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine,—wresting the sacred Scriptures to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy Mother Church—to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries and be punished with the penalties by law established."

Source: Dogmatic Canons and Decrees, copyright 1912 by the Devin-Adair Company, published by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., 1977, pg. 11 (boldfaced emphasis added).

The Trentine / Tridentine Creed,
or The Creed Of Pius IV, from the Bulls
Injunctum Nobis, November 13, 1564
and In Sacrosancta, December 9, 1564:

... "I also admit the Holy Scriptures, according to that sense which our holy mother the Church has held, and does hold, to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures; neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

[This Profession of Faith must be sworn to by anyone holding an ecclesiastical office in the Roman Catholic Church, and also by all converts from Protestantism.]

Source: Ibid, pg. 176 (boldfaced emphasis added).

The Vatican Council
Session III, April 24, 1870, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith:

... "And as the things which, in order to curb rebellious spirits, the holy Synod of Trent decreed for the good of souls concerning the interpretation of Divine Scripture have been wrongly explained by some, We, renewing the said decree, declare this to be its meaning: that, in matters of faith and morals, appertaining to the building up of Christian doctrine, that is to be held as the true sense of Holy Scripture which our holy Mother Church hath held and holds, to whom it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scriptures; and, therefore, that it is permitted to no one to interpret the Sacred Scripture contrary to this sense or likewise contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers."

Source: Ibid, pgs. 222-223, (boldfaced emphasis added).

 

Lisa dear --

This is where it gets a little sticky for me as a convert to the East. We acknowledge the headship of the Roman See, and we have been united in doctrine for a number of centuries, yet we do have certain administrative differences which are allowed and do not defy that which the Roman Church has established as truth.

For instance:

The DOCTRINAL TRUTH, which all must acknowledge as truth, is that Christ is present in the elements, body, soul, blood, and dinvinity, the whole Christ. This is the Western explanation.

We do not use such an explanation, but our belief is the same.

We also do not use the same kind of elements that the Western Church does. They use a flat paten and a chalice, which are administered separately, while we bake a loaf of "phosphora" (bread), bless it, then cut it into small cubes. The cubes are placed on the "diskos" beside the wine in the chalice. The prayers of consecration are said over these items, making them the Body and Blood of our Lord, and then the Body of Christ is placed in the chalice with the Blood of Christ and the priest administers the Divine Mysteries by means of a small golden spoon, by which he drops the mixed piece of Body and Blood into the mouth of the communicant.

See? Like doctrine, different administration.

So then the issue with Trent would be if they are discussing DOCTRINE or ADMINISTRATION, since councils can and do handle both. On matters of doctrine, we indeed have no right to dissent from that which makes us and all other rites part of the universal (catholic) church. But on administrative matters, we are sui juris (self governing) and have every right to run our rite as we feel proper to our culture. So if tomorrow the Roman rite holds a council and declares that Latin is to be the only language of the Mass, that is an ADMINISTRATIVE decision and would not affect us.

Okay?

I hope I cleared that up a tad.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Hi all,

Sorry I have not been too responsive lately as I just started a new job and have been quite busy. But I have wanted to post on the topic of Augustine's quote from above. I think if you look at it quite carefully you will see that it is not really a contradiction of what the Church teaches.

Chapter 10 [IX.]-He Could Not Be Justified, Who Had Not Heard of the Name of Christ; Rendering the Cross of Christ of None Effect.

"I take the instance of a young man, or an old man, who has died in a region where he could not hear of the name of Christ. Well, could such a man have become righteous by nature and free will; or could he not? If they contend that he could, then see what it is to render the cross of Christ of none effect,27 to contend that any man without it, can be justified by the law of nature and the power of his will."

The Church says that absolutely not. No man can save himself by his own will without grace. So what Augustine says is true. A man who has not had grace in his life and has not responded to it or has rejected the grace in his life cannot be saved. To say otherwise is to embrace Pelgianism which I am sure is what Augustine has in mind with this verse. In other places (city of God and I think sermon 96) Augustine does affirm baptism of desire for Catechumens. Now the only real discrepancy between Augustines words and those of the Church today might be that it seems that Augustine is saying it is impossible for a man to have grace in his life without the Church there. I would think that he would even say if the man had a bible fall on his head or blow onshore. To which the Church today would say that all men are given an opportunity at salvation by grace today and it is how they respond to that light that determines their outcome for it says:

Romans 2:14-15
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

That law written on all men's hearts is there because of grace. Yet even that response is due to grace. Hope that helps.

Ron Amen to you piece above. It is even clearer to me that the V2 document on Rites. You should be a theologian. On second thought....

Blessings.

 

Thess,

This is what Augustine said:

To say that Grace is received without hearing the name of Christ "is to render the cross of Christ of none effect." While else was the Great Commission issued? "Go out and spread the Gospel throughout the whole world!" Why? Because unless one hears it, they can not receive Grace.

 

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard" (Augustine, The True Religion 7:12).

 

To say that Grace is received without hearing the name of Christ "is to render the cross of Christ of none effect." While else was the Great Commission issued? "Go out and spread the Gospel throughout the whole world!" Why? Because unless one hears it, they can not receive Grace.</font>[/QUOTE]Why did you feel that it was necessary to change what the cited author said?'

You changed "become righteous by nature and free will" to "receive Grace without hearing the name of Christ".

These are no where near equivalents.

The only words you kept of the original quote where "render the cross of Christ of none effect".

Augustine didn't say even remotely what you tried to change it into. Why even bother quoting him in the first place?

 

To say that Grace is received without hearing the name of Christ "is to render the cross of Christ of none effect." While else was the Great Commission issued? "Go out and spread the Gospel throughout the whole world!" Why? Because unless one hears it, they can not receive Grace. </font>[/QUOTE]You missed my point entirely Lisa but then what is new. Try2 got it. For those who will not submit to Christ's Church no explanation is any good. For those who believe none is neccessary. Have a nice day.


Blessings.

 

It seems that when alot of these RC priests and liberal prots go on these talk shows, they worry more about "political correctness" and "all men speaking well of them" than they are concerned about truth.

 

Well, Psalms, we are in agreement with something!!We have had a number of Latin rite people come to the East specifically for that reason -- they want a theological practice which takes a stand and doesn't change its practices to accomodate the "sensibilities" of every whinney malcontent with an axe to grind.

Unfortunately, while the doctrines of the Roman rite have not changed and are essentially the truth, the way in which they are administered (clown Masses, guitar Masses, false eccumenism with pagans, watering down the Gospel so as to not offend the Muslims, lack of discipline of disident priests and laity, lack of punishment of criminal acts within the rite, etc., etc., etc.) is driving a lot of the more Traditional people in that rite plain ole crazy!!

Unfortunately, we in the East are starting to feel some of these problems ourselves as the pressure from modernists and those out of step with Tradition presses against our priests. I hope that our bishops have the nerve to step up to the plate and do what has to be done.

However, in regards for the "truth", you will still only find it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. All that any other assembly has which is Orthodox has come from the Catholic Faith to them.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed