Last book of the Bible to be written - is NOT Revelation

[BobRyan]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, that is just a theory not fact and Alford's commentary deals with both theories (A.D. 68 theory and A.D. 97 theory) and presents overwhelming evidence to disprove the former.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The order that they were written is of no consequence in my opinion. It's been theorized that Job was written before Genesis. That doesn't change any of the truths contained inside.

That being said, I do enjoy learning the history surrounding the Bible and the people in it.

 

[DrJamesAch]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

This is primarily a preterist view because if they concede that Revelation was written after AD 70, the entire preterist system falls apart since they believe that all prophecy from Revelation 1-19, Daniel 9:24-27, and Matthew 24, was fulfilled when Titus destroyed Jerusalem.

There is internal Biblical evidence as well as external evidence that it was written after 90 AD.

Some internal evidences are the fact that the church of Smyrna did not exist in AD 68 but is listed as one of the 7 churches in Revelation 2.

External evidence are all of the early church "fathers" who affirmed that John wrote the book while under the reign of Domitian who did not start his reign until 80 AD. The suggestion that it may not have been written in AD 90+ didn't come until almost 500 years later, but such a theory is in conflict with every church elder that wrote about Revelation from John and Paul's followers.

There's a lot more evidence, but this is the short version

 

[Revmitchell]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

Good luck with that.

 

[Yeshua1]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

ONLY pretierists and liberals hold to that view, MOST evangelical conservative christians do hold John wrote Revelation at end of his life, on Patmos, mid 90's AD, LAST book of the canon!

Do you think ellen White revelations were also part of the canon?

 

[Wherever You Go]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.) and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

I thought everyone knew about that history - but apparently there is at least one guy - living in my neighborhood that is not aware of it.:sleeping_2:

in Christ,

Bob

Boy, you sure do need to meet some more Bible scholars.

 

[BobRyan]

R.C. Sproul and many others propose a writing for the book of Revelation in the 60's and not the 90's with all other letters and the Gospel of John written after he left Patmos and went back to Ephesus.

However after looking into it more - I think that while it is true that after John left Patmos he did go to Ephesus and write the Gospel of John -- still the book of Revelation was written in the 80's or 90s while at Patmos under the orders of Domitian.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

... still the book of Revelation was written in the 80's or 90s while at Patmos under the orders of Domitian.

Are you saying that the Roman Emperor Domitian - the persecutor of Christians and the first Roman Emperor to deify himself as "lord and god" - ordered John to write the Book of Revelation?

 

[BobRyan]

Obviously I am saying that Domitian ordered John to Patmos in exile after first trying to boil him in oil. In Patmos he wrote the book of Revelation. And then after the death of Domitian John was returned to Ephesus where he wrote the Gospel of John.

 

[targus]

Obviously I am saying that Domitian ordered John to Patmos in exile after first trying to boil him in oil.

There is nothing that is obvious about what you say.

I thought that it might be just another unique SDA belief. :laugh:

 

[kyredneck]

This is primarily a preterist view because if they concede that Revelation was written after AD 70, the entire preterist system falls apart....

No it isn't and no it doesn't:

"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young.”

In other words Young says it's a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and others that has resulted in A DOMINO EFFECT of bad information concerning the dating of Revelation down through the centuries.

And I seriously doubt if Young had ever heard of the term preterism in his life.

 

[BobRyan]

in the scenario where John goes to Patmos in the 60's - he return from exile - goes to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John.

in the scenario where John goes to Patmos in the 80's or 90's - he returns from exile - goes to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John.

Both scenarios put the Gospel of John after the book of Revelation.

According to Papias, one of John's disciples, John later went to the city of Ephesus. He was exiled under Emperor Domitian to the island Patmos. It was there that he wrote the Book of Revelation, which is the 27th book of the New Testament. Under Nerva, John returned to Ephesus, and there composed the Gospel of John, the 4th book of the New Testament, and three Epistles, called John 1, John 2, John 3. John reportedly died at a very old age.
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p30.htm

[FONT=&quot]he was exiled to Island of Patmos where he wrote his Apocalypse. In 95 CE he returned to Ephesus and started writing his Gospel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] St John died in Ephesus and according to his will, he was buried nearby Ephesus. His all words and Gospel still live today.[/FONT]
http://www.ephesus.us/ephesus/st_john_in_ephesus.htm

According to Alban Butler, some think he wrote his gospel in the isle of Patmos; but it is the more general opinion that he composed it after his return to Ephesus, about the year 98.[10]
St. John died in peace at Ephesus, in the third year of Trajan (as seems to be gathered from Eusebius's chronicle), that is, the year 100, the saint being then about ninety-four years old, according to St. Epiphanius and was buried on a mountain without the town.[10]

[10] - Butler, Rev. Alban, The Lives or the Fathers, Martyrs and Other Principal Saints, Vol. IV

 

[kyredneck]

in the scenario where John goes to Patmos in the 60's ....

There is compelling internal evidence within the book of Revelation itself that much of it is concerned with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and that it was written prior to that event:

And I saw another sign in heaven....and them that come off victorious from the beast... they sing the song of Moses the servant of God....Rev 15.1-3

The song of Moses is being sang in heaven in the 15th chapter of Revelation. This is very significant. The song of Moses had only one purpose and time, and that was to 'testify before Israel as a witness against them' when they had utterly corrupted themselves and evil had befallen them in the 'latter days':

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses.....this people will rise up, and play the harlot ...and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day.....and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought.....
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you...... that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
21....when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness.....
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

The Song of Moses is quoted by Christ and the Apostles in reference to 'that evil generation' of Jews of their day.

 

[BobRyan]

In the preterist view - the worst thing in all of the 2000 years of history of mankind that takes place between 60 AD and today - is the destruction of Jerusalem which Jesus basically says is a "done deal" in Matt 23 long before John writes anything.

I am not inclined to make the entire book of revelation into a all-Jews-all-day sort of book.

By the time of the A.D 60's or 90's (does not matter) John was well aware of the fact of Roman persecution and that the world as seen from both Ephesus and Patmos was a lot bigger than Jerusalem's now defunct status. Paul had already written the fact that the Jewish nation state was a matter of no consequence before John goes to Patmos - when Paul writes in Romans 9, Romans 11 and 1Thess2 that the literal Jew idea as most favored - was a dead issue.

But regardless of that matter -

the point I am making is that no matter which view is taken - it is still the case that John returns from Patmos - to Ephesus and write the Gospel of John.

[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus[/FONT] appears to make this point well.

Irenaeus, the pupil of Polycarp who was the friend and pupil of St. John, said that John "for sixty years after the Ascension preached orally, till the end of Domitian's reign; and after the death of Domitian, having returned to Ephesus, he was induced to write (his Gospel) concerning the divinity of Christ, co-eternal with the Father; in which he refutes those heretics, Cerinthus and the Nicolaitans."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[kyredneck]

...I am not inclined to make the entire book of revelation into a all-Jews-all-day sort of book.

Oh no! As any partial preterist, neither do I! There is sooooo much more to the book than that.

the point I am making is that no matter which view is taken - it is still the case that John returns from Patmos - to Ephesus and write the Gospel of John.

[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus[/FONT] appears to make this point well.

OK.

And what's the point in making that point? To establish the fact that Rev was written before the gospel and the letters? (which I knew already) Or is there a deeper significance that I'm missing?

 

[franklinmonroe]

R.C. Sproul and many others propose a writing for the book of Revelation in the 60's and not the 90's with all other letters and the Gospel of John written after he left Patmos and went back to Ephesus. ...

Bob, could you give a specific reference where RC Sproul has said this? Thanks

 

[BobRyan]

Franklin -- I will post it - when I get back to my PC today. Don't let me forget.

However I do not believe in the preterist view of the book of Revelation as some do that promote the 60 A.D. writing of the book. And I don't think that a 60AD writing would make it preterist in the first place.

Also - my view is that the book was written during the time of Domitian and then when the Emperor dies - John returns to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John among others.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

OK.

And what's the point in making that point? To establish the fact that Rev was written before the gospel and the letters? (which I knew already) Or is there a deeper significance that I'm missing?

Some have supposed that the ending chapter of the book of Revelation deletes all possibility that God might ever communicate with a prophet again.

But then when we point out that John wrote under divine inspiration even AFTER Rev chapter 22 - then the one making the claim must either stick to their guns and argue that John is a false prophet - or they must change their speculation about Rev 22.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, could you give a specific reference where RC Sproul has said this? Thanks

[FONT=&quot]RC Sproul’s lecture titled “The book of Revelation”

from the DVD series “The Last Days According to Jesus.”[/FONT]

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/last_days_according_to_jesus/?gclid=CInY9tvWhrgCFSfl7Aodh3wADg