Last book of the Bible to be written - is NOT Revelation

[BobRyan]

R.C. Sproul and many others propose a writing for the book of Revelation in the 60's and not the 90's with all other letters and the Gospel of John written after he left Patmos and went back to Ephesus.

However after looking into it more - I think that while it is true that after John left Patmos he did go to Ephesus and write the Gospel of John -- still the book of Revelation was written in the 80's or 90s while at Patmos under the orders of Domitian.

=======================

[FONT=&quot]External Evidence[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Irenaeus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Clement of Alexandria[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Victorinus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Jerome[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.[/FONT]

 

[Yeshua1]

R.C. Sproul and many others propose a writing for the book of Revelation in the 60's and not the 90's with all other letters and the Gospel of John written after he left Patmos and went back to Ephesus.

However after looking into it more - I think that while it is true that after John left Patmos he did go to Ephesus and write the Gospel of John -- still the book of Revelation was written in the 80's or 90s while at Patmos under the orders of Domitian.

=======================

[FONT=&quot]External Evidence[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Irenaeus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Clement of Alexandria[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Victorinus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Jerome[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.[/FONT]

Think those dating it early are all pretty much either Pretierists or Amils, or see it as being totally symbolic in meaning!

 

[BobRyan]

I am not preterist or amil -- I am historicist.

But in this case - the issue is the order of the books

======================================================
[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
==========================================

The main issue is the order in which the books were written -- not the date that they were written. Polycarp is claiming that the Gospel of John was written after the book of Revelation.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

[Revmitchell]

Sproul is a preterist. Anyone who denies a literal, future, and physical return of Christ has no credibility.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The order that they were written is of no consequence in my opinion. It's been theorized that Job was written before Genesis. That doesn't change any of the truths contained inside.

That being said, I do enjoy learning the history surrounding the Bible and the people in it.

It is of great consequence as it effects MEANING very much.

I have always maintained Revelation is 'The Fifth Gospel'. I still say it and is more convinced that it is than ever.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

sproul is a preterist. Anyone who denies a literal, future, and physical return of christ has no credibility.

that is true!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Think those dating it early are all pretty much either Pretierists or Amils, or see it as being totally symbolic in meaning!

I am amill but no preterist - the two are mutually exclusive. Meanwhile Revelation regardless stays mostly if not totally symbolic. It can therefore not be used to play prophet by anyone. It requires to be used for teaching and exposition of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and as a result for explanation of the Old Testament. All these modern superior viewpoints on Revelation are just to increase the numbers of denominations.

 

[BobRyan]

Sproul is a preterist. Anyone who denies a literal, future, and physical return of Christ has no credibility.

He is a preterist and I am not. My claim is that there are a number of people who accept the statement by Polycarp (John's disciple) that John went to Ephesus and wrote the gospel of John after he wrote Revelation while on Patmos.

Sproul also thinks the book of Revelation was written in the 60's - and that it applies only to events in the first century. I think he is wrong on both counts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[evangelist-7]

Most Bible scholars that I know of admit that John wrote Revelation first (probably around 68 A.D.)
and then the Gospel of John and letters of John in later years - with the latest of them possibly in the 90's.

Roberto, I iz guilty as charged!
I thought everyone knew Revelation was written on the island of Patmos in the 90's.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

... Revelation regardless stays mostly if not totally symbolic.

Gracias, Gerhard the Symbolic!

IMO, the most important section in Revelation is Jesus' letters to the 7 churches,
which most today are struggling to ignore (including thou, iz I correct?).

Reason:
Everyone's salvation is the most important thing,
and that's what these warning letters are mostly about.

Warning:
The NT is absolutely chuck full of warnings, and Revelation is part of the NT.
The actual "elect" will discern and heed the revelations of the Holy Spirit re: the warnings!
This is in spite of Satan's deceiving the church into going along with him to ignore them!
.

 

[DHK]

Almost every conservative scholar or commentary that I pick up are unanimous in the fact that this book was written ca. 98 A.D. The ones that maintain that it was written 70 A.D or earlier usually have a hidden agenda, that is, they are either Preterists or plain liberal. The Bible, for them, is under attack. They refuse to look at the facts. This indeed is the last book of the Bible, and was put at the end of the canon for that reason, as was all of John's writings save his gospel, which was last in order of the gospels.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gospel of John was written about 98 A.D. and as Polycarp notes - John goes to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John -- after writing the book of Revelation at Patmos.

Almost every scholar you will ever meet - admits that Polycarp was a disciple of John.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Roberto, I iz guilty as charged!
I thought everyone knew Revelation was written on the island of Patmos in the 90's.
.

I would hope that is the case.

 

[DHK]

The Gospel of John was written about 98 A.D. and as Polycarp notes - John goes to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John -- after writing the book of Revelation at Patmos.

Almost every scholar you will ever meet - admits that Polycarp was a disciple of John.

in Christ,

Bob

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Jamieson, Faucett and Brown state:

PLACE AND TIME OF WRITING.--The best authorities among the Fathers state that John was exiled under Domitian (IRENÆUS [Against Heresies, 5; 30]; CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA; EUSEBIUS [Ecclesiastical History, 3.20]). VICTORINUS says that he had to labor in the mines of Patmos. At Domitian's death, A.D. 95, he returned to Ephesus under the Emperor Nerva. Probably it was immediately after his return that he wrote, under divine inspiration, the account of the visions vouchsafed to him in Patmos (Re 1:2,9). However, Re 10:4 seems to imply that he wrote the visions immediately after seeing them. Patmos is one of the Sporades. Its circumference is about thirty miles. "It was fitting that when forbidden to go beyond certain bounds of the earth's lands, he was permitted to penetrate the secrets of heaven" [BEDE, Explanation of the Apocalypse on chap. 1].

 

[Yeshua1]

Sproul is a preterist. Anyone who denies a literal, future, and physical return of Christ has no credibility.

I thought that he was an A Mil. as most reformed are though?

Just means that while His views on Sotierology would be pretty good, those on eschatology not so much!

 

[Yeshua1]

The Gospel of John was written about 98 A.D. and as Polycarp notes - John goes to Ephesus and writes the Gospel of John -- after writing the book of Revelation at Patmos.

Almost every scholar you will ever meet - admits that Polycarp was a disciple of John.

in Christ,

Bob

revelation closed the canon of scripture, and all further revealtions from God!

 

[evangelist-7]

revelation closed the canon of scripture, and all further revealtions from God!

Spoken by a guy who was kicked out of a Pentecostal church by either God or Satan,
or just chose to go of his own accord.

Whatever of the 3, t'was quite a disaster!

Meanwhile ... BATR ...
Sounds to me like he is somewhat blaspheming the Holy Spirit!
'Cause 'tis the Holy Spirit who reveals today what God wishes to have revealed.

Holy Molly, God reveals all kinds of good stuff to His people ... Gee, even in prayer! Dah!
.

 

[Yeshua1]

Spoken by a guy who was kicked out of a Pentecostal church by either God or Satan,
or just chose to go of his own accord.

Whatever of the 3, t'was quite a disaster!

Meanwhile ... BATR ...
Sounds to me like he is somewhat blaspheming the Holy Spirit!
'Cause 'tis the Holy Spirit who reveals today what God wishes to have revealed.

Holy Molly, God reveals all kinds of good stuff to His people ... Gee, even in prayer! Dah!
.

the Holy Spirit led me out of classic pentscostal circles, into baptist ones, but do see that the Christians in that Assemblies of God church were saved, and also thankful a solid majority of them did NOT hold to crazy 'charasmatic chaos!"


and the Spirit has NOT given to us ANY additional revelations since canon was closed , as any so called does NOT agree with the Bible, so iare spurious and not of God!

 

[BobRyan]

revelation closed the canon of scripture, and all further revealtions from God!

That man-made tradition might work - until you read history and find out that Polycarp reports that John wrote the Gospel of John when he returned to Ephesus - after being released from Patmos.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

That man-made tradition might work - until you read history and find out that Polycarp reports that John wrote the Gospel of John when he returned to Ephesus - after being released from Patmos.

in Christ,

Bob

Even if that were true, that gives no proof that Revelation was written at an early date. It is known that John lived into the 2nd century.