Last Days Madness

[Grasshopper]

Both Isaiah 34 and Micah 1 are references to the Day of the Lord, which is also what Jesus describes in Matthew 24.

There are many "Days of the Lord" found in scripture. They do not all speak of the same event. This is why most futurist have problems with the OT use of apocalytic language. They are forced to take clearly past events and make them future becaus eof how they are described.

 

[npetreley]

There are many "Days of the Lord" found in scripture. They do not all speak of the same event. This is why most futurist have problems with the OT use of apocalytic language. They are forced to take clearly past events and make them future becaus eof how they are described.

Huh?

The reason there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord in scripture is because, well, because there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord. With a few minor exceptions (which focus on one aspect of the Day of the Lord), the rest all describe the event the same exact way in more or less detail. The Day of the Lord is always the Day of the Lord's wrath. It is frequently accompanied by a description of the sun going dark and the moon turning to the color of blood, and stars falling from the sky.

You're right that the Bible REFERENCES the Day of the Lord many, many times. That's because it is one of the most significant days in the history of mankind. It is the day when the Lord Jesus returns and pours out His wrath on the wicked. So it should come as no shock that you see it so often, and that the descriptions are so similar. And to top it all off, you have Jesus saying in no uncertain terms that it will happen, and the people will see it happen.

The fact that anyone would "write this off" as apocalyptic literature never to be fulfilled literally is blindness that I find truly baffling.

 

[Jo$h]

Both Isaiah 34 and Micah 1 are references to the Day of the Lord, which is also what Jesus describes in Matthew 24.

So in Isaiah 34 vs 5 when the prophet says the passage is about Edom its actually not about Edom. In Micah 1 what is the transgresson of Jacob or the sins of Israel is NOT SAMARIA?

How about a parallel passage on the same events to end all debate? (Well, it SHOULD end all debate but it won't, because preterists, like others who cannot endure sound doctrine, ignore plain language it if contradicts their position.)

You need to look in the mirror first before you critize the preterist hermenutic because the above references contradict your postition because if they did happen preterists are right, everyone has a theological bias when reading a text. The issue is what did it mean to the original audience.

he reason there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord in scripture is because, well, because there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord. With a few minor exceptions (which focus on one aspect of the Day of the Lord), the rest all describe the event the same exact way in more or less detail. The Day of the Lord is always the Day of the Lord's wrath. It is frequently accompanied by a description of the sun going dark and the moon turning to the color of blood, and stars falling from the sky.

The day of the lord is God acting in history not ending history, here is a link explaining the dotl and it is NOT a preterist site.

http://www.gotquestions.org/day-of-the-Lord.html

 

[Ed Edwards]

Just say NO to 'Audience Relevance'

Jack Matthews: //We met last Sunday night for the first time, and there's not a single person
in the group who has a preconceived idea about eschatology.//

If there were no single person, were there any married persons?

BTW, I have preconceived ideas about eschatology.
I've studyed eschatology and related Christian Theology for
for 41 years as an adult (21+l). The Holy Spirit
has given me lots of 'preconceptions'. And I will never
buy the New Age idea that I must 'blank my mind' to listen
to 'a spirit' - I have THE SPIRIT who has ministered to
me for 54 years.

RO Collilns: //Here is a preconceived idea that is hard to throw off.
Audience Relevance//

The ear audience for the New Testament prophecies did not
know about nuclear weapons. The ear audience for the New
Testament prophecies did not know that by about 1964 and after
mankind would be able to do all the bad stuff in Revelation
to themselves. Indeed, after 1964, if God does not intervene
in the affairs of mankind, mankind has the capacity to destroy
itself (at least, at most, mankind has the capacity to destroy all
life on the face of the earth).

No, the ear audience for the New Testament prophecies do
NOT have to be considered what they though about it.
We need to figure out using the Bible, the ministry of the
Holy Spirit, and using our understanding of the signs of the
times; to misister to each other and do good works one to another.

 

[Ed Edwards]

There are many "Days of the Lord" found in scripture. They do not all speak of the same event. This is why most futurist have problems with the OT use of apocalytic language. They are forced to take clearly past events and make them future becaus eof how they are described.

Strange, this futurist also teaches multiple 'Days of the Lord'. :saint:

 

[Grasshopper]

Huh?

The reason there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord in scripture is because, well, because there are many REFERENCES to the Day of the Lord. With a few minor exceptions (which focus on one aspect of the Day of the Lord), the rest all describe the event the same exact way in more or less detail. The Day of the Lord is always the Day of the Lord's wrath. It is frequently accompanied by a description of the sun going dark and the moon turning to the color of blood, and stars falling from the sky.

You're right that the Bible REFERENCES the Day of the Lord many, many times. That's because it is one of the most significant days in the history of mankind. It is the day when the Lord Jesus returns and pours out His wrath on the wicked. So it should come as no shock that you see it so often, and that the descriptions are so similar. And to top it all off, you have Jesus saying in no uncertain terms that it will happen, and the people will see it happen.

The fact that anyone would "write this off" as apocalyptic literature never to be fulfilled literally is blindness that I find truly baffling.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Fulfilled in the destruction of Babylon by the Medes.

Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Fulfilled:

John Gill:

for the day of the Lord is at hand; the time of his vengeance on the Jewish nation for their sins, which he had fixed in his mind, and had given notice of by his prophets: this began to take place at Josiah's death, after which the Jews enjoyed little peace and prosperity; and his successor reigned but three months, was deposed by the king of Egypt, and carried thither captive, and there died; and Jehoiakim, that succeeded him, in the fourth year of his reign was carried captive into Babylon, or died by the way thither; so that this day might well be said to be at hand:

See Walvoord's quote in "Last Days Madness" page 283.

So yes, there are many "days of the Lord" found in scripture and they do not refer to the same event.

The fact that anyone would "write this off" as apocalyptic literature never to be fulfilled literally is blindness that I find truly baffling.

Then please just explain the OT passages presented to you. Tell us how they really didn't apply to Edom and Babylon etc... and how they really apply to some "people" in the future.


Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Here we have a "day of the Lord". Jesus tells us very plainly that John was the "Elijah" to come. So doesn't that put Malachi's 'day of the Lord" in the time-frame of John the Baptist?


Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come? Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

I am confident that when Jack presents both views to his class, they will clearly see the scripture clearly teaches a preterist view.

 

[Grasshopper]

Strange, this futurist also teaches multiple 'Days of the Lord'. :saint:

Ed, aparrently you are wrong as well.:thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

Needless to say, I disagree with Walvoord, Origen, and the other people preterists like to quote. I disagree with you and Ed, too.

I'm not up to bickering about it, though. Believe what you want to believe. There will come a day when we'll all be able to look back on history and see what was fulfilled, how, and when. I happen to be of the opinion that, someday, when Jesus comes in glory as described in all those references to the Day of the Lord, you'll see for yourself that it was one future event. You want to see it any differently until then - be my guest.



​

 

[npetreley]

I did feel compelled to address this one thing...

So in Isaiah 34 vs 5 when the prophet says the passage is about Edom its actually not about Edom.

It's about Edom, but it's not JUST about Edom. Look at the passage.

1 Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
2 For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out;
Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
5 “ For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
It is made overflowing with fatness,
With the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them,
And the young bulls with the mighty bulls;
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

It's about all nations, which is what the Day of the Lord is all about.

Big picture: All nations.
Some details: Edom.

It's like saying "I'm going to destroy the world. New Jersey will become desolate." That doesn't mean New Jersey is the topic, nor does it mean New Jersey is the whole world.

People pass through Edom all the time, by the way. Either you have to chalk up "no one shall pass through it forever and ever" to apocalyptic literature (symbolism), or this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. Similarly, I don't recall when the armies of all nations were destroyed by God. I must have missed that event in history class.

I don't particularly care which way you want to see it. I see it as being yet unfulfilled. Like I said above, believe whatever you want to believe, but as far as I can see, the word of God doesn't seem to support your conlusion.

 

[Grasshopper]

Needless to say, I disagree with Walvoord, Origen, and the other people preterists like to quote. I disagree with you and Ed, too.

Don’t forget Spurgeon and Gill.

Needless to say I disagree with Thomas Ice, Tim LaHaye, Jack VanImpe and other people futurist like to quote.

2 For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.

Yet He speaks in past tense.

People pass through Edom all the time, by the way. Either you have to chalk up "no one shall pass through it forever and ever" to apocalyptic literature (symbolism), or this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

So when does this get fulfilled?

10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

“Generation to generation” seems to indicate an ongoing condition. Of course you believe it is “forever and forever” so therefore it must exist in the Millennial Kingdom and in the New Heavens and New Earth. Am I wrong?

I don't particularly care which way you want to see it. I see it as being yet unfulfilled. Like I said above, believe whatever you want to believe, but as far as I can see, the word of God doesn't seem to support your conlusion.

Why thank you for this privilege. I will continue to believe it till proven from scripture otherwise.

 

[Jo$h]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jo$h
So in Isaiah 34 vs 5 when the prophet says the passage is about Edom its actually not about Edom.


It's about Edom, but it's not JUST about Edom. Look at the passage.

Quote:
1 Come near, you nations, to hear;
And heed, you people!
Let the earth hear, and all that is in it,
2 For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out;
Their stench shall rise from their corpses,
And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
5 “ For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
It is made overflowing with fatness,
With the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 The wild oxen shall come down with them,
And the young bulls with the mighty bulls;
Their land shall be soaked with blood,
And their dust saturated with fatness.”
8 For it is the day of the LORD’s vengeance,
The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch,
And its dust into brimstone;
Its land shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke shall ascend forever.
From generation to generation it shall lie waste;
No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

It's about all nations, which is what the Day of the Lord is all about.

Big picture: All nations.
Some details: Edom.

Malachi chapter 1 says it was fulfilled in the destruction of Edom.

If nothing ever come to pass how can we judge what a false prophet is?

People pass through Edom all the time, by the way. Either you have to chalk up "no one shall pass through it forever and ever" to apocalyptic literature (symbolism), or this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. Similarly, I don't recall when the armies of all nations were destroyed by God. I must have missed that event in history class.

I don't particularly care which way you want to see it. I see it as being yet unfulfilled. Like I said above, believe whatever you want to believe, but as far as I can see, the word of God doesn't seem to support your conlusion.

Even our dispensational youth pastor says this was fulfilled. Its called prophetic hyperbole it was very common in the middle east, IF you REALLY were paying attention in history class you would know that.

 

[HankD]

"Anyone Christian who has had a ham and egg breakfast at church on Easter Sunday morning is a dispensationalist".

I don't remember the author who said this but its food for thought.

HankD

 

[HankD]

"Anyone Christian who has had a ham and egg breakfast at church on Easter Sunday morning is a dispensationalist".

I don't remember the author who said this but its food for thought.

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

I don't remember the author who said this but its food for thought.

HankD

Probably a dispie.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[npetreley]

Even our dispensational youth pastor says this was fulfilled. Its called prophetic hyperbole it was very common in the middle east, IF you REALLY were paying attention in history class you would know that.

Well, gosh, if your dispensational youth pastor says it was fulfilled, then I take back everything I said. That trumps anything I've got.

 

[Jo$h]

Well, gosh, if your dispensational youth pastor says it was fulfilled, then I take back everything I said. That trumps anything I've got.

because he can read malachi ch1 and see it was already fulfilled

 

[npetreley]

because he can read malachi ch1 and see it was already fulfilled

Hey, you already won. Take your ball and go home.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Well, gosh, if your dispensational youth pastor says it was fulfilled, then I take back everything I said. That trumps anything I've got.

I fold

 

[HankD]

because he can read malachi ch1 and see it was already fulfilled

But Josh, one chapter of historical fufilment does not cancel out the possibility of dispensationalism.

Almost any dispensationalist will support historical fulfilment of many/most OT prophecy.

Granted there is quite a bit of figurative speech, symbolism, hyperbole, simile, etc in the prohetic writings (for a reason). The question is where does one draw the line?

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.​

HankD

 

[ACADEMIC]

In 1989, David Chilton's excellent book Paradise Restored forever changed my thinking about eschatology - away from what I now see as rediculous dispensationalist views to Partial Preterism.

The entire book is now online for free:

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/21de_47e.htm